Final Furlong Forum

General => Comments and Suggestions => Topic started by: Argus Sheldrake on February 08, 2006, 01:44:33 AM

Title: Pricing of Horses
Post by: Argus Sheldrake on February 08, 2006, 01:44:33 AM
Why is it ok for some people to place High prices on thier horses and not for others when all they are charging is what the horse has earned which as suggested by Shanthi no more than 2x the net earnings?

REF: http://www.finalfurlong.org/mb/viewtopic.php?t=2559&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=pricing+horses

I am asking because I've seen horses who are being advertised at high dollar amounts all the time.  And right now I believe there is no rules on this.
Title: Pricing of Horses
Post by: Shanthi on February 08, 2006, 01:58:34 AM
Mainly because the key word there is "suggestion".

The "problem" with my placing an actual "rule" or coding limit on pricing of horses is that some horses will not follow that rule.

Babies - they have no race earnings, so the closest I could come would be to average their siblings' race earnings, if any...still, if the baby's by a very nice/not nice sire, this could be invalid
Unraced mares - average of foal earnings could work, but again, who she's in foal to complicates this, and if she has no racing foals, there's absolutely nothing to go by
Stallions - studs are generally priced far higher than other horses because you can potentially get a lot of income each year through stud fees

Even with horses who've raced, pedigree plays a huge factor.  You could take 2 2yos who're 5-1-1-1-1 $100,000 and whoever's got a better pedigree is worth more, even though the "rule" would limit people to selling them for a max of $50,000...if one of them is a filly from a nice line, she's probably worth more like $250,000.
Title: Pricing of Horses
Post by: Andrea on February 08, 2006, 03:32:01 AM
As someone who's sold a horse for a high price recently, I'm not apologetic.

I sold I Swear for $250,000.  Pulling up my budget page I've still LOST $92,000 on him with all the races he's been nominated for.  He was MSP, half to some very nice horses and full to a MSW who has produced a MSW.  So while the price I put on him was not the standard 1/2 earnings "guideline" the guideline is just that, and intended more for helping players get a feel for where to start.  I was also dropping the price on him by $50,000 a day until he sold.

I've seen several other horses up for high prices lately.  One Shanthi and I discussed and PMed the owner to investigate, and the other disappeared, either bought or the owner came to their senses.  When horses are priced unreasonably at over 100k we're less paranoid about them because if a player has that much money, hopefully they've had time to develop a feeling of if the horse is worth that or not.
Title: Pricing of Horses
Post by: Cheq on February 08, 2006, 03:38:10 AM
You mean I should have waited longer to buy him :wink:  :D
Title: Pricing of Horses
Post by: Andrea on February 08, 2006, 03:58:21 AM
Lol, I dunno.  I'd been toying with just pulling him off the market when he went "poof" so it's probably for the best ;).  Good luck with him though.  I really think he should run better for you.  All the rest of my horses seem to run better for other people.
Title: Pricing of Horses
Post by: Argus Sheldrake on February 08, 2006, 04:20:48 AM
Yeah I noticed those two and thought they were way over priced.  Not that I could purchase any of the horses that have been put up, but just thought I'd ask why it's ok for some to over price their horses and not for others to price their horses accordingly.  

I'm also asking because I"m looking at placing a yearling up for sale, soon.  And don't want to get chewed out for pricing them where I believe their potential is.
Title: Pricing of Horses
Post by: Shanthi on February 08, 2006, 04:28:04 AM
As long as you can (reasonably) defend your price, I don't care.  It's when maiden 5yo geldings are being put up for sale for $50,000 (let alone $250,000) that I get annoyed.

As people have said, the suggestion you referred to earlier is a suggestion/guideline.  If you can defend going above that guideline, go you.  If not, you're potentially gonna get questions/comments from people if you set insane prices, just like everyone else.
Title: Pricing of Horses
Post by: Smylie on February 08, 2006, 01:57:46 PM
The bottom line as I see it is that, the price, is what the market will bear. Along with that is the old saying"Buyer Beware".
Title: Pricing of Horses
Post by: Cheq on February 08, 2006, 02:54:25 PM
That's true. However if your going to put an obviously ridiculous price on a horse be prepared to get flack. Because people will comment on or question the price. Argus obviously thought at 250k I Swear was way over priced. I felt the horse had potential. I don't think he'll ever qualify as a stud. However he does have the potential to earn his price back twice over at least. The main thing is .... I had the money to take that chance. Prices look different depending on your bank account :wink:
Title: Pricing of Horses
Post by: Argus Sheldrake on February 08, 2006, 03:53:59 PM
Oh no I understand about the market determining the price.  And I understand about potential.  But right there as you've described it there was a $250,000 gelding.  

I guess what I'm getting at is that if your going to let the buyer determine if the horse is worth the amount or not why not let the buyer determine that.  As each person is going to have a different idea of the horses potential.  

I've been paying attention to some of the stallions people like purchasing sons and daughters of such as Planet Hollywood, the one I know of because I tried getting a couple of his daughters and just couldn't do it.                                  

I would also think that a horse with a decent race record would be worth more and also one that has the ability if raced correctly by the next owner to make its purchase price woth of winnings.  

For young horses it would mainly be based on the pedigree, and of course siblings, and half siblings records.
Title: Pricing of Horses
Post by: Cheq on February 08, 2006, 04:28:55 PM
I think your right about the gelding (My opinion), but not because it was a gelding. I don't know that anyone's been told directly "You may not sell the horse for that price." However if the price is obviously ridiculous you will get comments and questions :twisted:
Title: Pricing of Horses
Post by: Shanthi on February 08, 2006, 05:21:40 PM
Quote from: Argus Sheldrake
I guess what I'm getting at is that if your going to let the buyer determine if the horse is worth the amount or not why not let the buyer determine that.  As each person is going to have a different idea of the horses potential.


Um...that's what people have been saying.  If someone really wants to pay $250,000 for a gelding, that's their choice.  If I see it, I'll probably post/PM the owner and ask them to defend their $250,000 price, since unless said gelding is 3 and just won the Derby or something, he's probably not going to bring that much back in revenue (unlike horses with breeding potential, as you can sell the foals/stud bookings).

Presumably if you have the money, you know how to spend it.  And if you don't, you'll go bankrupt and quit the game.   :twisted:
Title: Pricing of Horses
Post by: KindleHopeFarms on February 08, 2006, 07:26:19 PM
I don't mean to push anybody's buttons, or make this silly discussion continue un-necessarily, but I kinda disagree so hear me out and let me play devil's advocate... (ok.. like .5% disagreement but whatever  :wink: ..)
I think that the 'unfair' feeling here results from what we call in the business world 'good will'. It's hard to put a monetary value on the intangible assets of, in this case, a horse. AND I think the biggest problem is that people are unvaluing that good will. Andrea shouldn't have had to loose money on that sale. He's a really nice colt, and out of one of her foundation mare lines. The fact that no one would buy him before he dropped below the break even point kinda says to me that we (the players in FF) have an unrealistic idea of getting a 'bargain' every time we buy something.  We're not willing to pay what the horse is actually worth, so we're undercutting *ourselves* when we buy horses. I think that's why auction w/ reserves seem to be most popular with FF players because the base asking price for the horse (ie. the reserve, which should be the amount that we have spent on the horse total) is guaranteed and the rest is profit above.
Contrary to that, obviously selling a horse for $24 billion dollars, or whatever the random figure was a while back is outrageous and Shanthi is 100% correct that prices need to be supported. The only time I'll undercut a horse is if I want to get rid of it quickly. If things aren't working out, and the horse isn't performing well, I actually save the economy of FF more money by cutting him loose for some other player to try. Chances are, he'll perform better for that person and increase his value positively, rather than negatively. In addition, as I mentioned earlier, auctions do seem popular, but in the 'unfair pricing' complaint, I think auctions could be partially to blame (even though I love them). Obviously competition for a particular horse will drive the price up to more than the horse is deemed 'worth'.  But we allow this by saying, "Oh, someone is willing to spend that much on the horse, so it must be worth it.."  This brings in a whole other side of economics and the economic debate of Keynes vs. Adam Smith which I promise I won't bore you with... but, despite what Smith says, the invisible hand isn't always the best *especially when the goods are intangible*.....
I'm off my soapbox!  8)
-Kerry
Title: Pricing of Horses
Post by: Andrea on February 08, 2006, 07:39:22 PM
Lol, Shanthi and I were just commenting out the PF broodmares have gone insanely high.  I doubt if we'd put (m)any of those mares for sale on the sales page for their current price we'd have had any takers.
Title: Pricing of Horses
Post by: CascadeJade on February 08, 2006, 07:41:55 PM
Well said Kerry, I totally agree with you, although I never could have said it quite so well.  As a breeder, I'm tired of selling horses(unless I'm doing a newbie a favor) I've raised for less than their stud fees+nomination fees+taxes/upkeep(and that's not counting the intangible value of the broodmare's use for a year), but it seems to be a pretty common thing for not just me, but many other stables, no matter how nice the foal is. Unless a horse is a total dud(albeit, there are some out there) if raced correctly and frequently enough, horses in this game seem to earn back good money pretty quickly. The situation is getting better though, probably due to the fact that there doesn't seem to be quite enough horses in the game for as many people that want to buy.

Plus, this whole bias by newbies against geldings...I don't get it. A gelding can  run just as well for you, if not better, than an intact colt and trust me, its hard to make studs pay for themselves with all the competition the studs have with each other+breeding nominations etc.
Title: Pricing of Horses
Post by: Argus Sheldrake on February 08, 2006, 10:15:54 PM
Alright whoever doesn't shop around for a bargain has more than enough money to loose.  Most new players are going to look for bargains, as they don't have a lot of money and it often takes a lot of time to start making enough to compete with the rest of you.  

As for bias against geldings I have no bias against a gelding that is young enough to race and earn back money and can have the potential to be solid allwance horses.  As if they are gelded there's not much purpose in stakes racing them.  However if they will do well I would give them a shot at it.

And as for someone questioning about why I am asking for the price I am and offering me another price, I'm open to people asking me about horses I put up for sale.  Right now I don't have any horses I can sell.  I currently have a filly I'm looking at putting up for sale when I can since I need to sell her in order to keep my other horses able to run.  She's got great producers in her background.  So of course I think she has potential to do well for someone that wants to race her.  I'm trying to give my racing colt the chance to be a stallion, however if he doesn't show me some promise he's going to be a gelding.  As there's not much sense in keeping an allowance horse as a stallion since I won't be able to use him as a stallion.
Title: Pricing of Horses
Post by: Mintano on February 09, 2006, 12:30:16 AM
Quote
As if they are gelded there's not much purpose in stakes racing them. However if they will do well I would give them a shot at it.


There's no reason why geldings can't run in, and win stakes races. There are quite a few good stakes running geldings out there: Danzigitty, Do You Dare, Seducer and What's The Point.

I purchased Storming River in December. I have raced him three times since I purchase him. In his past two races he has run in stakes, he won a Grade 3, and came in second in a Grade 1. I purchase him for $50,000 he has won $100,000 since I purchased him. He's not exactly in his prime either, he's in his six-year old season.

So really, there's plenty of reason to run geldings in stakes, they have just as much a chance of winning as colts, more even since they shouldn't have the testosterone running through their veins to distract them.
Title: Pricing of Horses
Post by: Andrea on February 09, 2006, 01:09:33 AM
Not to mention horses like Funny Cide and the real Lonesome Glory... both of those horses were geldings who won big.  Lonesome Glory won an Eclipse award multiple years for his SC talents and Funny Cide won the first two legs of the Triple Crown.  Are you saying they shouldn't have been entered in stakes races because they can't breed?

Also, if you're running a stallion in stakes races and he's not placing in the top 5 more than 50% of the time, he probably doesn't belong in them.  Why does everyone want to retire their horses to stud?  I already know I'm losing money on all but 2 of my stallions this year (Planet Hollywood and Cross Roads).  Unless you can charge 10k for a breeding and get 10 outside mares a year, you can't nominate to the Breeder's Cup without losing money.  And there are tons of $1,000-$5,000 studs out there that you can breed to who are nice and you'll STILL save money because you don't have to pay taxes on the stallion.

This game is off balance (not through Shanthi's fault) because people aren't interested in horses who are male and not MSW or unraced maidens.  That's like 45% of the horses in FF who are undervalued because of their gender, not their potential earnings.  The same horse as a filly would bring over 10x more.  Buy geldings and race them in claimers and allowances.  My allowance horses make me more money than almost all of my stakes horses if you look at the bottom line.  Simply because their entry fees are cheaper and they can compete more successfully and I don't have to waste money on nominations for them.
Title: Pricing of Horses
Post by: Smylie on February 09, 2006, 02:13:14 PM
I don't know what the real world numbers are but I'm thinking that at least 75% of the males are geldings. That leaves the rest to be running in 2 and 3 yr old stakes and very few older Allowance horses(Stallions). And as has been said in other places here we are moving towards a more realistic Final Furlong race world. One with more claiming races that will get smart owners more quick cash to fuel the breeding dream of the perfect racehorse that wins every race it enters....... Well it is a dream....
Title: Pricing of Horses
Post by: KindleHopeFarms on February 09, 2006, 03:02:51 PM
Not to disagree w/ you Smylie, but I actually think most of the males are colts because they want the hormones to increase competitive drive. They cut them later in life when they outlive their breeding potential in terms of highest economic efficiency ( they prefer to retire colts w/ less than 10 starts, and try to make them BIG BIG races)...


Quote from: Argus Sheldrake
Alright whoever doesn't shop around for a bargain has more than enough money to loose.  Most new players are going to look for bargains, as they don't have a lot of money and it often takes a lot of time to start making enough to compete with the rest of you.  


I'm not saying that bargains aren't a necessity in FF, but my point is that you can't expect *every* horse to be 50% or less of what it's worth. And when we buy those 'bargains' we're negatively impacting the economy of FF because we dilute the average price of a horse, which in turn, undercuts our own sales when we offer our own horses to other players. Whether we like it or not, we need to pay the appropriate premium for high caliber horses.  The bargains I've picked up have been unintentional and pure luck. Those were horses that were negatively valued by the market... I hate to keep using him as an example, and I'm sure everyone is tired of it, but Best Kept Secret. I bought him for $500 from an auction because someone cut him loose, and there was no interest in him because he was a colt by an unproven, albeit famous stallion.
On the opposite end, I paid over $1million for Must Be Magic. As a stallion, I know he'll never make it back, but that's not what I look for in studs for KindleHope. I've taken a gamble, especially considering that when we had BP ratings, his was low enough to warrant him being barred from stud-hood. That changed when other low-BP stallions proved to be successful.

I guess my point is that we can't attempt to 'cheat' eachother in either side of the purchase/sale of a horse.  If you aren't willing to pay what the owner of the horse asks, re-evaluate why you wouldn't. If it's because you don't have the money, frankly, you shouldn't buy the horse. Don't try to get a GI winner for pennies, and don't try to buy a foal for less than it's stud fee.  That's unfair to the big players.  Look for horses within your budget.  I know there are plenty of high caliber allowance horses that are big money earners. You have to work for a stakes winner: believe me, I know! Alternatively, the best you can do is hope to get lucky. The nice thing is that it's very easy to do in FF.  Geldings are fabulous $$ earners. And we all started with the newbie budget: $100,000 is easy to get good horses.
In direct contrast with that, don't *intend* to sell your back-yard claiming nag for millions. Your expenses on the horse is a good way to start. Add any gut feeling for pedigree. If you come out with an outrageous number, chances are your *personal attachment* to the horse is high enough that its worth MORE TO YOU than any other person. My advice: DON'T SELL.
I don't think I would ever sell Actor or any of her foals because I know they would be worth more to me, than someone like Starz Afire is worth to the rest of the community.
And truthfully, as a senior member I have one crab-apple statement which isn't directed at anyone specifically:
But please, don't complain about the prices of horses being to high, because Shanthi and Andrea are too nice and they'll take action about it to make everyone happy. Work a little harder, or ask someone for advice. Don't whine... It just ticks us all off and makes more work for the people who already devote their life to making this an amazing experience for all of us. Look and learn.
kk I have to go to class now... perhaps I'll add more later
-Kerry
Title: Pricing of Horses
Post by: Argus Sheldrake on February 09, 2006, 03:13:39 PM
I just like how this has gotten to this when the initail question was why are some contacted and not others about the pricing of their horses.  If someone doesn't deem a horse worth a certain price then that person doesn't have to buy it.  HEck everyone could believe that the horse isn't worth the price, and then the owner would have to either decide to keep the horse, or lower the price.  Just like in real life.


I guess I should ad that contact from someone wanting to see if they can offer you another amount is fine.
Title: Pricing of Horses
Post by: Cheq on February 09, 2006, 03:20:08 PM
The printed word is open to wide and varied interpretation :wink:
Title: Pricing of Horses
Post by: Shanthi on February 09, 2006, 05:00:06 PM
Quote from: Argus Sheldrake
I just like how this has gotten to this when the initail question was why are some contacted and not others about the pricing of their horses.


If that was your original point, then the answer is:
Free speech

If I personally have a problem with the price you're setting for a horse ("you" being a general term, not you personally), I may decide to e-mail you and ask you why you set that price, if I have the time/energy/inclination.  That's not to say that I'll ask/force you to drop your price, or anything, but mostly because I want to hear justification of the price.

The reason for this?  Protectiveness.  ;)   :roll:  Some of these prices are feasibly within a new(ish) member's budget, and new(ish) members aren't generally familiar enough with the game/bloodlines to know what's worth $100k and what's not.  So when I see a 5yo stallion who's won 1 race as a 2yo and managed to place 3rd in 15 starts this year up for sale for $150,000, I'm concerned that someone may think "Oh wow!  A stallion!  Maybe I can get him qualified!" (Which is a whole 'nother sore point with me, since as Andrea/Kerry stated above, stallions are SO much easier to deal with when you don't own them).

I'll also step in when I have a personal interest in the matter.  I've sold a few horses to a certain stable, and they were making deals to get other horses...totally fine.  But I did ask them to let me know if they were no longer interested in owning the horse(s) I sold them, because I still liked them, and I'd rather pay money to have them back (and thus enable said stable to buy different horses) than to see them get shuffled around from owner to owner and probably end up back in Final Furlong ownership.

Likewise, if I give a new member a really great deal (i.e. selling a millionaire for 15k, and so on), I'm generally not impressed/happy when they turn around a month later and try and sell said horse for $300,000.  While the horse may be worth that, I took a significant loss to be nice, and if the person doesn't want the horse anymore, I'd prefer they either offer it back to me for the purchase price (assuming they made money on him racing), or offer it up to some other new member for a good price.
Title: Pricing of Horses
Post by: Argus Sheldrake on February 09, 2006, 05:08:24 PM
Thank you Shanthi for that explination.
Title: Pricing of Horses
Post by: Smylie on February 09, 2006, 05:12:35 PM
Quote from: KindleHopeFarms
Not to disagree w/ you Smylie, but I actually think most of the males are colts because they want the hormones to increase competitive drive. They cut them later in life when they outlive their breeding potential in terms of highest economic efficiency ( they prefer to retire colts w/ less than 10 starts, and try to make them BIG BIG races)...

Please disagree away!!!!  :lol: I do in fact agree with what you said and it does make a lot of sense. The colts do need the testosterone to develop. Hence the agreement with cutting them later in life after they have developed to adulthood. If I'm reading between the lines with this and Shanthi's latest post is that if they are 4 or older and have run in stakes and not placed it's likely they won't! Therefore it's time to geld them and make excellent claimer/allowance racers out of them. Please feel free to disagree again! :lol:
Title: Pricing of Horses
Post by: Andrea on February 09, 2006, 05:16:04 PM
Also, since we typically try to contact people via PM or IM, you may or may not know when we've contacted someone about their pricing.  Some people may have been contacted and then chosen to ignore us.
Title: Pricing of Horses
Post by: MJM_RACING on February 09, 2006, 05:57:52 PM
Yes...Yes I sold a gelding for 50,000...a 5-yr old maiden gelding.
My price is defended here:

First and foremost, I think that the market to some level dictates how much a horse is to go for...if I say 100,000 and nobody bites..then I try 75,000 and nobody bites..then the market is saying..that price is too high.
Market condidtions can range from available cash to all players(which i believe is high given the costs of vet,jockey,trainer,food...etc are not factored in yet...(which i look forward to some day)..So ALOT of money that is won in purses is kept). None of this is a critique but more of an observation. Since this is a simulation game..that goal for me is two-fold build an excellent barn with champions/stud's/broodmares..to do that you need horses and money..
Other market conditions that exsist are the amount of horses up for sell...generally this is a low, low amount...there are never really any horses up for sale on the sales page...market is favoring sellers in this case.

so i feel that in buying and selling horses the price does depend (in some ways) to the market.

As for the horse...I dont know...50,000...doesnt seem too high
Yes this horse hasnt won a race yet....But has shown some promise since moving to the Steeplechase races. Has been competitive in Allowance company. Still is a young 4 years, out of a 25K stud. Has reacted to different combinations of equipment.
I didnt have the time to really figure this horse out so I sold him.
He may or may not make 50,000 in purse money for the new owner.
There is also the chance that he wins alot more.

If the market didnt react to 50,000 then i may have brought the price down to 45, or 40 or put him in a 30K claimer race(the price I got him for)
Title: Pricing of Horses
Post by: Shanthi on February 09, 2006, 06:04:38 PM
Quote from: MJM_RACING
Market condidtions can range from available cash to all players(which i believe is high given the costs of vet,jockey,trainer,food...etc are not factored in yet...(which i look forward to some day).


All of those costs are lumped in as taxes.  The game will not be implementing feeding at any time.  ;)  Jockeys will likely charge a % of the winnings, once they're enabled, but training will be free, as you are the trainer.  Vet checks are in the works, but will only be a factor if your horse is injured.
Title: Pricing of Horses
Post by: Shanthi on February 09, 2006, 06:15:57 PM
Quote from: MJM_RACING
As for the horse...I dont know...50,000...doesnt seem too high
Yes this horse hasnt won a race yet....But has shown some promise since moving to the Steeplechase races. Has been competitive in Allowance company. Still is a young 4 years, out of a 25K stud. Has reacted to different combinations of equipment.
I didnt have the time to really figure this horse out so I sold him.
He may or may not make 50,000 in purse money for the new owner.
There is also the chance that he wins alot more.


I have to disagree with you there, for several reasons:

1. The gender - geldings are useful for making money, that's it.  If the horse hasn't won a race in 26 starts on 3 different surfaces, chances are he's never going to win a race.  Some horses just aren't cut out to win races.  (Also note that this horse has been tried on every distance range with no success, and every track with no success...the only thing he hasn't encountered is a slow track, but given his dislike for good/wet tracks, I can't imagine more wetness would help any.)

2. The age - the "average" horse in FF is mature for 1-2 years.  The "average" horse also matures by age 3.  That means that, at most, this horse is most likely to be a hasbeen within the next 6 months..that's not going to increase his chances of winning a race, nor will they increase his chances of winning back $50,000 anytime soon.

3. His race earnings - the horse has only won $21,600...that alone would be my main argument against putting him up for sale for $50,000.  Even if "the market" will support such a high price for a horse who hasn't proven he can earn it back, that doesn't mean you should ask said price.

4. His bloodlines - yes, they don't matter for breeding purposes, but they do indicate his potential, or lack thereof.  His female line is nothing to write home about, and his sire is famous but not overly successful in the game.

I didn't question you on your price because I figured any of the above things (esp. #1 and #3) were fairly obvious to all members.  If someone wants to spend $50,000 on a horse who hasn't even won half that on the track in 2 years of racing, that's their deal and I wish them luck with it.  If you had been asking any more than $50,000 (or if you'd been offering him to new members only), I probably would've asked you to defend yourself, and given you the above counterargument against your defense.  ;)
Title: Pricing of Horses
Post by: Shanthi on February 10, 2006, 07:06:56 PM
As a random side note, I just sold Unleashed (http://www.finalfurlong.org/viewhorse.php?horse=1861) for $15,000 to new members only.

He's 3, a gelding, and a maiden, which were the factors I used to determine his purchase price.  The other factors I used were his bloodlines (he's 1/2 to 2 MSWs, 1 SW, and 2 SP horses, and by a famous sire), which is why he wasn't priced at $3,500 (1/2 of his race earnings).  Also, since he's just turned 3, he's likely still maturing, and probably has a good 18 months of solid racing in him, at least.

The catch?  I lost $359,150 on him, including the money he brought in for his purchase price.  He's nominated to 8 races in 2010 (which he may never run in but did cost me money to nominate him for), as well as the Breeders' Cup and the Breeders' Series.

I possibly could've gotten someone to pay $75,000 for him based on his age/bloodlines (and potentially more if he weren't gelded).  But since he is gelded, and he doesn't seem to be living up to his bloodlines quite yet, I don't need him in my barn.  So I figured I'd be nice and let a new member take a chance on him.

I guess that's why I bother to "step in" when I see outrageous prices.  Treat others the way you want to be treated yourself, and in my case, ask others to behave that way as well.  ;)
Title: Re: Pricing of Horses
Post by: Fleet Feet Thoroughbreds on September 02, 2006, 04:01:22 AM
Shanthi, I know a lot of people really appreciate how you've helped them out by selling them a horse for a good bargain. I know if I hadn't had the chance to win Spellbound from you I probably would have gone bankrupt seeing as my original starter horse couldn't run worth s---.

But I also want to point out that there's not too many people on this game who are that generous. I personally made many offers to larger stables in my first six months of the game following your guidelines. I generally made offers on geldings that I believed were very fair because a. they still weren't proven after many races, or b. they were no longer performing at the level they once did. And sadly to say most of the stables I contacted never got back to me. (even to politely decline my offer or explain to me why they didn't want to sell which I would have really, really appreciated)

So putting myself in the shoes of someone who hasn't been in the game that long I can definitely see the chain of events that leads to this

A) you're starter horses are no good and aren't making any money on the track so you're loosing money for entries
B) You're not lucky enough to get a good bargain from a generous larger stable/or that bargain horse has peaked and still doesn't bring in any money
C) You're then forced to buy a horse for top price/slash more then they're worth because there's practically nothing to buy or claim and you feel you must jump at the first thing that comes along.
D) That horse you just paid $40,000 for doesn't pan out for you and you have no money and your horse(s) aren't making you any money
E) Meanwhile you really only have a couple of choices: 1. you must wait for the Mixed Auction which may be almost a year away in hopes of getting something REALLY cheap that can actually run. (which is unlikely) 2. try to sell the horses that aren't working for you for more then they're worth (assuming they're really only worth 10-15k) so that you can either save up for an auction or hope to buy a better horse. (Many newbies who overprice their horses now would probably be more then happy to sell that horse for half of what they were worth if they had a 50 horse stable, but since they don't, I think they often feel their back is against the wall)

You can also handicap the races but realistically it isn't nearly as profitable as selling the horses in your barn that don't want to run for you.

I'm not trying to justify or condone overpricing of horses. I'm just saying I can see why it happens and the reasons are because there aren't enough horses. Now I don't have any great way to fix this, although I thought your idea of possibly allowing FF horses to be claimed sounded good. I'm torn between regulating prices though because on one end I feel that letting the market take its natural course is the best way to handle things but on the other end it makes it even harder on newbies especially when it's an established stable that is overpricing their horses. Although I do feel that people need to take responsibility for their purchases and should not complain about being ripped off if they make the mistake of overpaying for a horse. I guess in the end my motto is live and learn.
Title: Re: Pricing of Horses
Post by: Shanthi on September 02, 2006, 02:15:17 PM
Your scenario makes sense, except for one thing.  If you start with 2 racehorses, and enter them only in maiden races, you're spending an average of $750 per race.  With $50,000 to start off with, you could enter them 33 times each before you ran out of money.  (Since, if you're brand new, taxes on them will either be $0 if they stink or $5,000 if they're good.)  That's a lot of races that you can afford.  Is it possible that you get a starter horse that just can't/won't run and won't earn a dime in 33 starts?  Sure, but it's unlikely.  The script that generates starter horses makes sure that they are, generally, of "average" quality with ther stats...this means that they should be able to at least win a race, even if they won't necessarily go on to become stakes winners.

Part of the challenge of this game is that you have to go out and find that horse that's a "steal".  It's highly unlikely that someone's gonna PM you and say "here's this multi-million dollar horse for $500".  If people won't respond to PMs (many people don't check the forum), try e-mail.  If that doesn't work, move on to another stable.  There are 150 of them, and even assuming 100 of them are too small/new to want to sell horses, that still leaves a lot of stables to check out.

--------------------

The main problem with newbies overpricing their horses on purpose (other than the fact that it is fleecing other members out of more money) is that generally it's other newbies that buy the horse.  Older, more experienced members generally know a horse's worth and won't pay for an overpriced one unless it's for sentimental reasons.

So that continues the cycle...except that for option C it's buying from another new player and it happens more often because all the newbies end up in an endless cycle of losing money.
Title: Re: Pricing of Horses
Post by: Fleet Feet Thoroughbreds on September 02, 2006, 05:58:31 PM
Oh, I forgot newbiews get two horses now, I started off with one, and I did get the two freeby horses but they're still only yearlings now.

I know I emailed and PM'ed large stables and only heard back from probably about 1 out of 10. I know the game isn't suppose to be easy and trust me it isn't  ;)  I'm not complaining either. I guess my point is that a lot of big stables don't respond, even to decline smaller stables offers, even though I've heard a lot of people claim that they're open to smaller stables making offers as long as they state a price. So maybe I'm just saying everyone should try and be a little more sympathetic and at least politely decline when someone makes an offer instead of just completely ignoring them.
Title: Re: Pricing of Horses
Post by: Andrea on September 02, 2006, 08:13:50 PM
Most stables I know of do respond unless they're out of town or busy.  It's the beginning of the school year for a lot of people and before this it was summer when people were on vacation.  Don't get upset with people because they're not on their computers constantly. ;)  (Not saying you are, just saying don't assume people are trying to be rude when they don't answer).
Title: Re: Pricing of Horses
Post by: Cheq on September 02, 2006, 08:38:53 PM
There's also a trick to asking for horses. The time of year makes a difference. Near the end of the year and at the biginning of the year stables are "culling". That doesn't mean every horse they are willing to let go is bad. Usually with me is I've lost patience and 2 yo's are comming. I've sold and set to claimers my share of horses that turn out to be soild earners :P . It never hurts to ask but most people that've asked me have excellant taste in horses ;) ;D , and have pick horses I want to race myself. But if there asking about somrthing I haven't decided on I'll  give them first shot at the horse before I sell it ;)
Title: Re: Pricing of Horses
Post by: Andrea on September 02, 2006, 08:59:01 PM
And usually if people ask me for a horse that I'm not willing to sell or sell in their price range, I'll take a look through my stable and suggest one or two that are.  I'm not offended if they're not interested, but if players make an effort, I'm perfectly happy to make an effort back.  I know Shanthi and several other large stables operate with that method as well. :)
Title: Re: Pricing of Horses
Post by: Fleet Feet Thoroughbreds on September 02, 2006, 11:13:48 PM
I did most of my requesting in the first 6 months I joined, which was about 7 months ago. I'm just talking from my own experience and that was that most people never responded. There were a few stables that did though and I really appreciated it  :)
Title: Re: Pricing of Horses
Post by: Smylie on December 12, 2007, 07:16:13 PM
     One of the things that I've seen lately is that I've entered horses in claiming races fully expecting them to be gone and lo and behold they are still in the stable the next day. When I first got here the claiming issue was one of my pet peeves as well. Personally I'd like to see a claiming race per track per race day now that we have hit the saturation point. In real life some horses are destined for the claiming ranks and once they've gone there few of them return to the conditioned races.
     One of the things that has led to this is the cost of shipping. All of a sudden you can't ship a horse from Woodbine to Australia to England and back to Woodbine for nothing anymore. If the horse doesn't have a legitimate shot at winning there airfare you need to look at racing at local tracks and doing it strategically.
     As far as the not responding to PM's or e-mails I do most of my game work at "Work"  >:D and if anyone were to try to contact me over the coming holidays I most likely wouldn't respond. I've been ignored and I've moved on, it's as simple as that.
Title: Re: Pricing of Horses
Post by: Grace Littlef on January 08, 2008, 06:10:58 PM
I always try to respond when someone sends me a message, usually its to decline an offer but i always try to get back to them if i can. I also appreciate all the replies i get , the few times i have asked someone about a horse it usually worked out. Its taken me almost 3 yrs to build my stable and i hate to let anyone go, so when i do its been a long thought out process, due to sentimental reasons i have a hard time letting "my babies" go. lol. For a lot of us who cannot own a real horse anymore or ride due to injuries (aging sucks!!) we live vicariously through our game horses. (hence my sentimental snot-bubbling ((as hub calls it))over my dead filly)  ;D   I love playing and some days i log in like 30 times, lol, but i digress. Just dont get down and keep a positive attitude , eventually someone will respond and you might just be surprised..
Title: Re: Pricing of Horses
Post by: Wolfhound on January 08, 2008, 09:10:42 PM
I sometimes get requests for horses and make it an absolute priority to answer them. I remember how disheartening it was as a newbie, asking around and geting an awful lot of nobody replying. But one or two stables DID help, selling me horses at reasonable prices and to them i am grateful
However i have tried to help some newbies only to find that they leave without returning loaned horses (before proper leasing was introduced) or other problems. I know other stables who have similar stories to tell. So sometimes people can be treated warily until they show they are not "here today and gone tomorrow"
I do still ask for leases or sales from other stables whose horses I admire if I think they may have any spare. I often get a positive response, sometimes a polite refusal, but i don't take it personaliy. Like Grace I hate to part with any of my horses so I'll lease but rarely sell. In fact I will be having some horses up for lease in the next few days at very low prices but some conditions attached - so if interested PM me and I will discuss it!
Title: Re: Pricing of Horses
Post by: shortstuff on January 09, 2008, 02:48:47 PM
I am still waiting for my stable but I can say.watching my grandson and daughter in law play that there are alot of stables willing to help newbies. As for horse prices..from what my daughter in law has said look at geldings(younger ones) and fillies. You can get them at good prices at claim races and sometimes..just sometimes for sale. Just the advice from her...though watching her..she is right... ;)