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Shanthi
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« on: March 23, 2005, 02:13:37 AM »

 OK, so Kerry has inspired me.  :)  Going by average foal earnings, the current top 15 sires in the game are:

Highland Laird - $350,271
What's It Worth - $342,251
Irish River - $325,326
Highland Rogue - $273,227
Jazz It Up - $269,661
Rainbow Quest - $246,799
Secretariat - $209,227
Cigar - $207,192
Seabiscuit - $198,302
Lonesome Glory - $184,106
Danzig - $175,117
Cross Roads - $166,314
Seattle Slew - $164,498
Highland Bandit - $160,016
Crimson Lad - $157,006

I don't know that all of them would count as potential chef-de-race sires, as studs like Highland Bandit, Highland Laird, and Irish River haven't been around long enough to "make a stamp on the racing world"...at least not to the extent that studs like Highland Rogue, Rainbow Quest, What's It Worth, etc. have.

Of course, the main issue with creating dosage profiling for FF is that we have ~3,000 horses total in the game, whereas Steve Roman (the guy that does RL chef-de-race stuff) probably had at least 3,000 stallions to go through to pick his 200.  ;)

Anyway...thoughts/opinions/suggestions on
1) how to come up with a chef-de-race list of sires
2) how to come up with their classifications (B/I/C/S/P)?
« Last Edit: March 28, 2011, 11:45:27 PM by Shanthi » Logged
grljck13
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« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2005, 01:28:33 PM »

 Well I don't know anything

about comp, but I would be willing to give you some of my free time to do the math and look

into the studs that you needed.  From the looks of it, the game would have to start from

scratch, just like it did in real life.  There are only about 190 chefs de race in the

industry and look at how many horses there are.  So I think you would have to start with

maybe only 5 here.   The horses only get dosage points from the chef de race studs, the

problem is I noticed that the great studs were unraced, so if is hard to figure out their

dosage.  It would have to be done by going through each foal that raced.

This is where the

points come from.
furlongs =    

4...5...6...7..8...9..10...11...12...13..14..15...16...17...18+
 CD- at 4 furlongs a

2(brilliant)
        at 8 furlongs a 1(intermediate)
        at 12 furlongs a 0(classic)
 

      at 15 furlongs a -1(solid)
        at 18 furlongs a -2(professional)

So I guess you

would first have to decide who you wanted the chef de race to be and then go through their

foals and give them one point for each distance they one at to find out what the chef

was(brilliant, classic, etc.) They can be more than one.  Then it is set up by generation.  

They recieve 16pts. 1st gen., 8 pts 2nd gen, 4 pts 3rd gen, and 2 pts, 4th gen.  

Here is

a pedigree that shows what I'm saying in a pic. :huh:

href='
http://www.thoroughbredchampions.com/dosage/profcalc.htm'

target='_blank'>http://www.thoroughbredchampions.com/dosage/profcalc.htm

Stallions

can be added later but they have to stand the test of time, so it is really just your

professional opinion on who becomes a chef because you know who the most influential

stallions are.  

This was probably a useless post, but basically if you figure out who you

want to be the chefs, I can spare some time to figure out the classifications and dosage for

them.
 :ph34r:
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Shanthi
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« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2005, 01:38:55 PM »

 Figuring out the

classifications/dosage shouldn't be too hard to do with a script...which would be much

faster than you going through the hundreds of foals these sires have.  :)

My main issue is

what studs should be classified as chefs-de-race.  Obviously Highland Rogue and What's It

Worth, and likely Rainbow Quest and Planet Hollywood...anyone else?
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Andrea
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« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2005, 01:55:31 PM »

 Hmm, what about the famous

guys like Secretariat and Cigar?  Do they have enough foals running around yet to count them

in?

Edit:  Ooooh, Wood could be a Chef-de-Race?  Awesome.  Not bad for a maiden gelding

irl ;).
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Cheq
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« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2005, 04:28:25 PM »

 If you only consider horses

with 25 starters and 25% G1 winning percentage you only get 6 sires - 4 present, 2 retired.

that would qualify as Chefs:

What's It Worth
Planet Hollywood
Cross Roads
A.P.

Indy

Highland Rogue
Rainbow Quest

I must admit I modified my original parameters down

to get in Cross Roads and Rainbow Quest.  My original parameters were 50 foals, 25 racers,

30% winning G1's.
Money played no part because 1 or 2 Exceptional earners, especially with

so few foals running per horse, can skew the average.

Just my thoughts.  Oh and don't

forget the Blue Hen Mares B)  
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Shanthi
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« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2005, 05:54:49 PM »

 Blue Hen mares wouldn't

count towards chef-de-race/dosage, though I guess if we really wanted to we could do a FF

version of Reines de Course as well.

Again, the problem becomes having very few horses.

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Shanthi
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« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2005, 05:56:11 PM »

 We would probably also need

to adjust the distance for the categories, as FF has very few long flat races, and very few

long (18f+) steeplechase races, which basically nixes the Professional category entirely, by

real-life dosage numbers.
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CascadeJade
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« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2005, 07:18:41 PM »

 The whole things sounds

ultra cool if it could ever be made to work. I also like the idea of Reines de Course since

mostly how I estimate the quality of a horse is through the female line anyway (although the

big name sires definitly have a play in it!).
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KindleHopeFarms
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« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2005, 05:13:01 AM »

 Glad I could inspire

someone!
yeah... the reines de course are the awesome elite mares, but only the sires are

figured in dosage as it is a rather chauvanist industry...<_<
Shanthi, here is a really good

website that breaks it all down into common lingo,


href='
http://www.thoroughbredchampions.com/dosage/'

target='_blank'>http://www.thoroughbredchampions.com/dosage/

There can be a

correlation between the stallion's own racing style and the rankings he receives, but

because dosage is a breeding related topic, finding the statistics on how his  foals run is

more 'correct' for the math to follow.

Center of Distribution is another neat little

calculation that is based on the dosage foundations; that's on the website too... :D  I'd

say Steve Roman is the ultimate man...
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Shanthi
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« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2005, 11:06:31 AM »

 Yeah, I understand how the

chef-de-race studs' classifications can be figured out, but the question becomes: which

studs should count as chef-de-races, and which mares should count as reines de course?  (I

found absolutely no helpful info on RDC on Ellen Parker's site...probably so that people

would buy her book on it!).
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Andrea
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« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2005, 02:02:20 PM »

 Hmm, I tend to agree w/ Cheq

that going solely by average earnings probably isn't a good idea.  For instance, by that

Secretary should probably also be way up on your list and he's only got 2 foals running for

the next week until 2yos hit the tracks.

What about some sort of point system?  So like 5

pts for a MSW (maybe graded only?), 3 points for a SW or multi-ungraded, and then 1 point for

MSP?  And then go with the top 10 or somewhere that looks reasonable?  Hard to guess what the

"break" point should be without doing sample calcs for someone and I doubt I have that long

before I need to head to work.  

Just thought that might help make sure that studs people

don't think about too much get a chance to be included and by default it'll sorta require a

reasonable number of foals running in order to make the cut.  Reines-de-course could be

figured the same way, you'll just likely have more mares make the cut b/c well, I think we

have more MSW dams in FF than awesome studs.  Which is how it should be. ;)  Dunno, just

guessing over breakfast :)
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Shanthi
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« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2005, 02:08:22 PM »

Quote from: Andrea


Just thought that might help make sure that studs people don't think about too much get a

chance to be included and by default it'll sorta require a reasonable number of foals

running in order to make the cut.
Only problem with that logic is that

the whole concept of chef-de-race (at least from what I can gather from Steve Roman's site)

is that it should be studs that everyone thinks about by

default.  ;)

But I'll play around with some numbers and see what I can come up with.  I

imagine we probably want 15 or fewer CDR studs to begin with, and I will probably add in the

classification that to qualify, a stud must affect at least 2 generations (i.e. have SW

grandbabies).  It is supposed to be for studs who have a "lasting effect" on the breed, after

all.  :)
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Cheq
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« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2005, 03:23:29 PM »

 
Quote
I think we

have more MSW dams in FF than awesome studs. Which is how it should be.  ;) 


As a male I have to agree with Andrea on that point :P. However I

would think that a female would rather have less competition and more "studs" to choose from

;)
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Shanthi
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« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2005, 08:36:07 PM »

 OK, the list is in.  Points were calculated as 1pt for MSP foals, 3pts for SW foals, and 5pts for MSW foals.  The top 10 are as follows:

Sires:
1. Highland Rogue - 77 foals, 74 racers, 10 MSPs, 10 SWs, 19 MSWs - 135 points
2. What's It Worth - 102 foals, 50 racers, 5 MSPs, 9 SWs, 19 MSWs - 127 points
3. Planet Hollywood - 86 foals, 47 racers, 7 MSPs, 5 SWs, 7 MSWs - 57 points
4. Rainbow Quest - 49 foals, 27 racers, 3 MSPs, 2 SWs, 9 MSWs - 54 points
5. A.P. Indy - 69 foals, 32 racers, 2 MSPs, 2 SWs, 9 MSWs - 53 points
6. Cross Roads - 68 foals, 36 racers, 3 MSPs, 3 SWs, 7 MSWs - 47 points
7. Cigar - 48 foals, 23 racers, 1 MSP, 4 SWs, 5 MSWs - 38 points
8. Lucky Cigar - 49 foals, 36 racers, 4 MSPs, 1 SW, 5 MSWs - 32 points
9. Secretariat - 50 foals, 18 racers, 0 MSPs, 2 SWs, 5 MSWs - 31 points
10. Lonesome Glory - 46 foals, 17 racers, 5 MSPs, 5 SWs, 2 MSWs - 30 points

Grandsires:
1. Highland Rogue - 295 foals, 63 racers, 3 MSPs, 10 SWs, 18 MSWs - 123 points
2. Seattle Slew - 165 foals, 88 racers, 8 MSPs, 7 SWs, 11 MSWs - 84 points
3. Secretariat - 107 foals, 38 racers, 1 MSP, 4 SWs, 7 MSWs - 48 points
4. Bold Ruler - 70 foals, 25 racers, 1 MSP, 2 SWs, 6 MSWs - 37 points
5. Cigar - 71 foals, 41 racers, 5 MSPs, 2 SWs, 5 MSWs - 36 points
6. Alydar - 62 foals, 19 racers, 0 MSPs, 0 SWs, 5 MSWs - 25 points
7. Northern Dancer - 42 foals, 11 racers, 1 MSP, 1 SW, 4 MSWs - 24 points
8. Mr. Prospector - 68 foals, 47 racers, 1 MSP, 3 SWs, 2 MSWs - 20 points
9. The Black - 14 foals, 4 racers, 0 MSPs, 0 SWs, 3 MSWs - 15 points
10. Man O'War - 42 foals, 15 racers, 0 MSP, 1 SW, 2 MSWs - 13 points

Broodmare sires:
1. Highland Rogue - 111 foals, 37 racers, 3 MSPs, 7 SW, 12 MSWs - 84 points
2. Seattle Slew - 42 foals, 22 racers, 3 MSPs, 4 SWs, 2 MSWs - 25 points
3. Mr. Prospector - 32 foals, 18 racers, 1 MSP, 3 SWs, 2 MSWs - 20 points
4. Secretariat - 23 foals, 10 racers, 0 MSPs, 2 SWs, 2 MSWs - 16 points
5. The Black - 14 foals, 4 racers, 0 MSPs, 0 SWs, 3 MSWs - 15 points
6. Spectacular Bid - 12 foals, 4 racers, 1 MSP, 0 SWs, 2 MSWs - 11 points
7. Whirlaway - 22 foals, 9 racers, 0 MSPs, 2 SWs, 1 MSW - 11 points
8. Count Fleet - 14 foals, 7 racers, 0 MSPs, 0 SWs, 2 MSWs - 10 points
9. Dixieland Jazz - 10 foals, 2 racers, 0 MSPs, 0 SWs, 2 MSWs - 10 points
10. Affirmed - 9 foals, 6 racers, 0 MSPs, 1 SW, 1 MSW - 8 points

Basically the only horses that make all 3 lists are Highland Rogue and Secretariat.

Comments?  Suggestions for a "final" list of chef-de-race sires? 

(Obviously as time goes on more sires could qualify, but for now, we need something to start with.)
« Last Edit: March 28, 2011, 11:47:58 PM by Shanthi » Logged
CascadeJade
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« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2005, 08:42:12 PM »

 All I can say is that it

looks pretty thorough to me. The system you've come with for evaluating the studs seems to

involve all studs who HAVE left a mark on FF through their foals.
I have a question though,

will this be automated so that when a new stud qualies himself he'll be added to the list on

maybe a page that updates itself like some of your other breeding pages?
Can't wait for the

Reines de Course too!
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