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Shanthi
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« on: March 23, 2005, 02:13:37 AM »

 OK, so Kerry has inspired me.  :)  Going by average foal earnings, the current top 15 sires in the game are:

Highland Laird - $350,271
What's It Worth - $342,251
Irish River - $325,326
Highland Rogue - $273,227
Jazz It Up - $269,661
Rainbow Quest - $246,799
Secretariat - $209,227
Cigar - $207,192
Seabiscuit - $198,302
Lonesome Glory - $184,106
Danzig - $175,117
Cross Roads - $166,314
Seattle Slew - $164,498
Highland Bandit - $160,016
Crimson Lad - $157,006

I don't know that all of them would count as potential chef-de-race sires, as studs like Highland Bandit, Highland Laird, and Irish River haven't been around long enough to "make a stamp on the racing world"...at least not to the extent that studs like Highland Rogue, Rainbow Quest, What's It Worth, etc. have.

Of course, the main issue with creating dosage profiling for FF is that we have ~3,000 horses total in the game, whereas Steve Roman (the guy that does RL chef-de-race stuff) probably had at least 3,000 stallions to go through to pick his 200.  ;)

Anyway...thoughts/opinions/suggestions on
1) how to come up with a chef-de-race list of sires
2) how to come up with their classifications (B/I/C/S/P)?
« Last Edit: March 28, 2011, 11:45:27 PM by Shanthi » Logged
grljck13
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« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2005, 01:28:33 PM »

 Well I don't know anything

about comp, but I would be willing to give you some of my free time to do the math and look

into the studs that you needed.  From the looks of it, the game would have to start from

scratch, just like it did in real life.  There are only about 190 chefs de race in the

industry and look at how many horses there are.  So I think you would have to start with

maybe only 5 here.   The horses only get dosage points from the chef de race studs, the

problem is I noticed that the great studs were unraced, so if is hard to figure out their

dosage.  It would have to be done by going through each foal that raced.

This is where the

points come from.
furlongs =    

4...5...6...7..8...9..10...11...12...13..14..15...16...17...18+
 CD- at 4 furlongs a

2(brilliant)
        at 8 furlongs a 1(intermediate)
        at 12 furlongs a 0(classic)
 

      at 15 furlongs a -1(solid)
        at 18 furlongs a -2(professional)

So I guess you

would first have to decide who you wanted the chef de race to be and then go through their

foals and give them one point for each distance they one at to find out what the chef

was(brilliant, classic, etc.) They can be more than one.  Then it is set up by generation.  

They recieve 16pts. 1st gen., 8 pts 2nd gen, 4 pts 3rd gen, and 2 pts, 4th gen.  

Here is

a pedigree that shows what I'm saying in a pic. :huh:

href='
http://www.thoroughbredchampions.com/dosage/profcalc.htm'

target='_blank'>http://www.thoroughbredchampions.com/dosage/profcalc.htm

Stallions

can be added later but they have to stand the test of time, so it is really just your

professional opinion on who becomes a chef because you know who the most influential

stallions are.  

This was probably a useless post, but basically if you figure out who you

want to be the chefs, I can spare some time to figure out the classifications and dosage for

them.
 :ph34r:
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Shanthi
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« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2005, 01:38:55 PM »

 Figuring out the

classifications/dosage shouldn't be too hard to do with a script...which would be much

faster than you going through the hundreds of foals these sires have.  :)

My main issue is

what studs should be classified as chefs-de-race.  Obviously Highland Rogue and What's It

Worth, and likely Rainbow Quest and Planet Hollywood...anyone else?
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Andrea
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« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2005, 01:55:31 PM »

 Hmm, what about the famous

guys like Secretariat and Cigar?  Do they have enough foals running around yet to count them

in?

Edit:  Ooooh, Wood could be a Chef-de-Race?  Awesome.  Not bad for a maiden gelding

irl ;).
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Cheq
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« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2005, 04:28:25 PM »

 If you only consider horses

with 25 starters and 25% G1 winning percentage you only get 6 sires - 4 present, 2 retired.

that would qualify as Chefs:

What's It Worth
Planet Hollywood
Cross Roads
A.P.

Indy

Highland Rogue
Rainbow Quest

I must admit I modified my original parameters down

to get in Cross Roads and Rainbow Quest.  My original parameters were 50 foals, 25 racers,

30% winning G1's.
Money played no part because 1 or 2 Exceptional earners, especially with

so few foals running per horse, can skew the average.

Just my thoughts.  Oh and don't

forget the Blue Hen Mares B)  
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Shanthi
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« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2005, 05:54:49 PM »

 Blue Hen mares wouldn't

count towards chef-de-race/dosage, though I guess if we really wanted to we could do a FF

version of Reines de Course as well.

Again, the problem becomes having very few horses.

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Shanthi
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« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2005, 05:56:11 PM »

 We would probably also need

to adjust the distance for the categories, as FF has very few long flat races, and very few

long (18f+) steeplechase races, which basically nixes the Professional category entirely, by

real-life dosage numbers.
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CascadeJade
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« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2005, 07:18:41 PM »

 The whole things sounds

ultra cool if it could ever be made to work. I also like the idea of Reines de Course since

mostly how I estimate the quality of a horse is through the female line anyway (although the

big name sires definitly have a play in it!).
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KindleHopeFarms
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« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2005, 05:13:01 AM »

 Glad I could inspire

someone!
yeah... the reines de course are the awesome elite mares, but only the sires are

figured in dosage as it is a rather chauvanist industry...<_<
Shanthi, here is a really good

website that breaks it all down into common lingo,


href='
http://www.thoroughbredchampions.com/dosage/'

target='_blank'>http://www.thoroughbredchampions.com/dosage/

There can be a

correlation between the stallion's own racing style and the rankings he receives, but

because dosage is a breeding related topic, finding the statistics on how his  foals run is

more 'correct' for the math to follow.

Center of Distribution is another neat little

calculation that is based on the dosage foundations; that's on the website too... :D  I'd

say Steve Roman is the ultimate man...
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Shanthi
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« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2005, 11:06:31 AM »

 Yeah, I understand how the

chef-de-race studs' classifications can be figured out, but the question becomes: which

studs should count as chef-de-races, and which mares should count as reines de course?  (I

found absolutely no helpful info on RDC on Ellen Parker's site...probably so that people

would buy her book on it!).
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Andrea
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« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2005, 02:02:20 PM »

 Hmm, I tend to agree w/ Cheq

that going solely by average earnings probably isn't a good idea.  For instance, by that

Secretary should probably also be way up on your list and he's only got 2 foals running for

the next week until 2yos hit the tracks.

What about some sort of point system?  So like 5

pts for a MSW (maybe graded only?), 3 points for a SW or multi-ungraded, and then 1 point for

MSP?  And then go with the top 10 or somewhere that looks reasonable?  Hard to guess what the

"break" point should be without doing sample calcs for someone and I doubt I have that long

before I need to head to work.  

Just thought that might help make sure that studs people

don't think about too much get a chance to be included and by default it'll sorta require a

reasonable number of foals running in order to make the cut.  Reines-de-course could be

figured the same way, you'll just likely have more mares make the cut b/c well, I think we

have more MSW dams in FF than awesome studs.  Which is how it should be. ;)  Dunno, just

guessing over breakfast :)
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Shanthi
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« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2005, 02:08:22 PM »

Quote from: Andrea


Just thought that might help make sure that studs people don't think about too much get a

chance to be included and by default it'll sorta require a reasonable number of foals

running in order to make the cut.
Only problem with that logic is that

the whole concept of chef-de-race (at least from what I can gather from Steve Roman's site)

is that it should be studs that everyone thinks about by

default.  ;)

But I'll play around with some numbers and see what I can come up with.  I

imagine we probably want 15 or fewer CDR studs to begin with, and I will probably add in the

classification that to qualify, a stud must affect at least 2 generations (i.e. have SW

grandbabies).  It is supposed to be for studs who have a "lasting effect" on the breed, after

all.  :)
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Cheq
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« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2005, 03:23:29 PM »

 
Quote
I think we

have more MSW dams in FF than awesome studs. Which is how it should be.  ;) 


As a male I have to agree with Andrea on that point :P. However I

would think that a female would rather have less competition and more "studs" to choose from

;)
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« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2005, 08:36:07 PM »

 OK, the list is in.  Points were calculated as 1pt for MSP foals, 3pts for SW foals, and 5pts for MSW foals.  The top 10 are as follows:

Sires:
1. Highland Rogue - 77 foals, 74 racers, 10 MSPs, 10 SWs, 19 MSWs - 135 points
2. What's It Worth - 102 foals, 50 racers, 5 MSPs, 9 SWs, 19 MSWs - 127 points
3. Planet Hollywood - 86 foals, 47 racers, 7 MSPs, 5 SWs, 7 MSWs - 57 points
4. Rainbow Quest - 49 foals, 27 racers, 3 MSPs, 2 SWs, 9 MSWs - 54 points
5. A.P. Indy - 69 foals, 32 racers, 2 MSPs, 2 SWs, 9 MSWs - 53 points
6. Cross Roads - 68 foals, 36 racers, 3 MSPs, 3 SWs, 7 MSWs - 47 points
7. Cigar - 48 foals, 23 racers, 1 MSP, 4 SWs, 5 MSWs - 38 points
8. Lucky Cigar - 49 foals, 36 racers, 4 MSPs, 1 SW, 5 MSWs - 32 points
9. Secretariat - 50 foals, 18 racers, 0 MSPs, 2 SWs, 5 MSWs - 31 points
10. Lonesome Glory - 46 foals, 17 racers, 5 MSPs, 5 SWs, 2 MSWs - 30 points

Grandsires:
1. Highland Rogue - 295 foals, 63 racers, 3 MSPs, 10 SWs, 18 MSWs - 123 points
2. Seattle Slew - 165 foals, 88 racers, 8 MSPs, 7 SWs, 11 MSWs - 84 points
3. Secretariat - 107 foals, 38 racers, 1 MSP, 4 SWs, 7 MSWs - 48 points
4. Bold Ruler - 70 foals, 25 racers, 1 MSP, 2 SWs, 6 MSWs - 37 points
5. Cigar - 71 foals, 41 racers, 5 MSPs, 2 SWs, 5 MSWs - 36 points
6. Alydar - 62 foals, 19 racers, 0 MSPs, 0 SWs, 5 MSWs - 25 points
7. Northern Dancer - 42 foals, 11 racers, 1 MSP, 1 SW, 4 MSWs - 24 points
8. Mr. Prospector - 68 foals, 47 racers, 1 MSP, 3 SWs, 2 MSWs - 20 points
9. The Black - 14 foals, 4 racers, 0 MSPs, 0 SWs, 3 MSWs - 15 points
10. Man O'War - 42 foals, 15 racers, 0 MSP, 1 SW, 2 MSWs - 13 points

Broodmare sires:
1. Highland Rogue - 111 foals, 37 racers, 3 MSPs, 7 SW, 12 MSWs - 84 points
2. Seattle Slew - 42 foals, 22 racers, 3 MSPs, 4 SWs, 2 MSWs - 25 points
3. Mr. Prospector - 32 foals, 18 racers, 1 MSP, 3 SWs, 2 MSWs - 20 points
4. Secretariat - 23 foals, 10 racers, 0 MSPs, 2 SWs, 2 MSWs - 16 points
5. The Black - 14 foals, 4 racers, 0 MSPs, 0 SWs, 3 MSWs - 15 points
6. Spectacular Bid - 12 foals, 4 racers, 1 MSP, 0 SWs, 2 MSWs - 11 points
7. Whirlaway - 22 foals, 9 racers, 0 MSPs, 2 SWs, 1 MSW - 11 points
8. Count Fleet - 14 foals, 7 racers, 0 MSPs, 0 SWs, 2 MSWs - 10 points
9. Dixieland Jazz - 10 foals, 2 racers, 0 MSPs, 0 SWs, 2 MSWs - 10 points
10. Affirmed - 9 foals, 6 racers, 0 MSPs, 1 SW, 1 MSW - 8 points

Basically the only horses that make all 3 lists are Highland Rogue and Secretariat.

Comments?  Suggestions for a "final" list of chef-de-race sires? 

(Obviously as time goes on more sires could qualify, but for now, we need something to start with.)
« Last Edit: March 28, 2011, 11:47:58 PM by Shanthi » Logged
CascadeJade
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« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2005, 08:42:12 PM »

 All I can say is that it

looks pretty thorough to me. The system you've come with for evaluating the studs seems to

involve all studs who HAVE left a mark on FF through their foals.
I have a question though,

will this be automated so that when a new stud qualies himself he'll be added to the list on

maybe a page that updates itself like some of your other breeding pages?
Can't wait for the

Reines de Course too!
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Cheq
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« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2005, 10:14:04 PM »

 That's cool :) . However I

think there's to many for the number of horses we have in the game considering there's only

190 in RL. what about combining the list. Add the points from each list that each horse has

and set a minimum total, but that's just me. Getting that done so fast was great Shanthi :D  

:D  
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Shanthi
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« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2005, 11:50:00 PM »

 So the combined top 10 list

(of sires) is as follows:

1. Highland Rogue - 372 (grand)foals - 137 racers - 13 MSPs - 20

SWs - 37 MSWs - 258 points
2. What's It Worth - 276

(grand)foals - 66 racers - 6 MSPs - 10 SWs - 19 MSWs - 131

points

3. Seattle Slew - 199 (grand)foals - 105 racers - 10 MSPs - 8 SWs - 14

MSWs - 104 points
4. Secretariat - 157 (grand)foals - 56 racers

- 1 MSP - 6 SWs - 12 MSWs - 79 points
5. Cigar - 119

(grand)foals - 64 racers - 6 MSPs - 6 SWs - 10 MSWs - 74

points

6. Rainbow Quest - 62 (grand)foals - 31 racers - 3 MSPs - 4 SWs - 9

MSWs - 60 points
7. Planet Hollywood - 115 (grand)foals - 48

racers - 7 MSPs - 5 SWs - 7 MSWs - 57 points
8. A.P. Indy - 79

(grand)foals - 32 racers - 2 MSPs - 2 SWs - 9 MSWs - 53

points

9. Cross Roads - 113 (grand)foals - 37 racers - 3 MSPs - 3 SWs - 8

MSWs - 52 points
10. Bold Ruler - 99 (grand)foals - 34 racers -

2 MSPs - 3 SWs - 7 MSWs - 46 points

This also happens to be

the cut-off for 50+ total points.
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« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2005, 12:24:41 AM »

 Wow you are fast :D . So now

the fun starts labeling the chefs for dosage. Figuring where they line up would be a real

pain if it has to be done manually. This will be a great tool when it's done.
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« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2005, 12:39:47 AM »

 I played around with the

numbers some more, and adjusted the points so that grandfoals were worth 150% as much as

foals (so a MSW grandfoal is worth 7.5pts, not 5pts).  The top 10 list didn't change, but

the order did:

1. Highland Rogue - 372 (grand)foals - 137 racers - 13 MSPs - 20 SWs - 37

MSWs - 319.5 points
2. Seattle Slew - 199 (grand)foals - 105

racers - 10 MSPs - 8 SWs - 14 MSWs - 146 points
3. What's It

Worth - 276 (grand)foals - 66 racers - 6 MSPs - 10 SWs - 19 MSWs - 133

points

4. Secretariat - 157 (grand)foals - 56 racers - 1 MSP - 6 SWs - 12

MSWs - 103 points
5. Cigar - 119 (grand)foals - 64 racers - 6

MSPs - 6 SWs - 10 MSWs - 92 points
6. Bold Ruler - 99

(grand)foals - 34 racers - 2 MSPs - 3 SWs - 7 MSWs - 64.5

points

7. Rainbow Quest - 62 (grand)foals - 31 racers - 3 MSPs - 4 SWs - 9

MSWs - 63 points
8. Planet Hollywood - 115 (grand)foals - 48

racers - 7 MSPs - 5 SWs - 7 MSWs - 57 points
9. Cross Roads -

113 (grand)foals - 37 racers - 3 MSPs - 3 SWs - 8 MSWs - 54.5

points

10. A.P. Indy - 79 (grand)foals - 32 racers - 2 MSPs - 2 SWs - 9 MSWs

- 53 points

Again, this fell at the cut-off for 50+ total

points.
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« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2005, 12:49:43 AM »

 The dams top 10 list is as

follows:

1. Townsend Holly - 10 foals - 9 racers - 1 MSP - 1 SW - 4 MSWs -

24 points
2. Miss Hayday - 11 foals - 8 racers - 0 MSP - 1 SW -

4 MSWs - 23 points
3. Highland Sorceress - 10 foals - 6 racers

- 0 MSP - 2 SW - 3 MSWs - 21 points
4. Seeing Starz - 10 foals

- 7 racers - 0 MSP - 0 SW - 4 MSWs - 20 points
5. Hollywood

Queen - 11 foals - 8 racers - 1 MSP - 1 SW - 3 MSWs - 19

points

6. Patriot Games - 9 foals - 6 racers - 0 MSP - 1 SW - 3 MSWs -

18 points
7. Nation's Pride - 11 foals - 9 racers - 2 MSP - 2

SW - 2 MSWs - 18 points
8. Heart's Blood - 9 foals - 6 racers

- 1 MSP - 2 SW - 2 MSWs - 17 points
9a. Evening Flame - 9 foals

- 7 racers - 0 MSP - 2 SW - 2 MSWs - 16 points
9b. First Lady -

9 foals - 6 racers - 0 MSP - 2 SW - 2 MSWs - 16 points
9c.

Playing With Fire - 11 foals - 7 racers - 0 MSP - 2 SW - 2 MSWs - 16

points

9d. Secret Summer - 7 foals - 5 racers - 0 MSP - 2 SW - 2 MSWs -

16 points
10a. American Black - 7 foals - 4 racers - 0 MSP - 0

SW - 3 MSWs - 15 points
10b. Highland Dreamer - 7 foals - 4

racers - 0 MSP - 0 SW - 3 MSWs - 15 points
10c. That's

Debatable - 9 foals - 7 racers - 0 MSP - 0 SW - 3 MSWs - 15

points
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« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2005, 12:55:39 AM »

 For "broodmare dams", I also

adjusted the numbers for grandfoals, this time by 2 (so a MSW grandfoal is worth 10 points,

not 5).  The "broodmare dams" top 10 list is as follows:

1. That's Debatable - 14

(grand)foals - 5 racers - 0 MSP - 1 SW - 2 MSWs - 26 points
2.

Townsend Holly - 28 (grand)foals - 15 racers - 1 MSP - 0 SW - 2 MSWs - 22

points

3. Hollywood Queen - 16 (grand)foals - 6 racers - 0 MSP - 0 SW - 2

MSWs - 20 points
4. Midnight Magic - 8 (grand)foals - 2 racers

- 0 MSP - 0 SW - 2 MSWs - 20 points
5. Nation's Pride - 14

(grand)foals - 6 racers - 0 MSP - 2 SW - 0 MSWs - 12 points
6.

Doubletake - 4 (grand)foals - 1 racers - 0 MSP - 0 SW - 1 MSWs - 10

points

7. Lady Temperance - 5 (grand)foals - 1 racers - 0 MSP - 0 SW - 1 MSWs

- 10 points
8. Lymerick - 11 (grand)foals - 3 racers - 0 MSP -

0 SW - 1 MSWs - 10 points
9. Second Chance - 2 (grand)foals - 1

racers - 0 MSP - 0 SW - 1 MSWs - 10 points
10.

Ifyoucouldseemenow - 17 (grand)foals - 3 racers - 1 MSP - 1 SW - 0 MSWs - 8

points
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« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2005, 01:01:51 AM »

 The overall combined total

(for dam score + broodmare dam score) top 14 (which gets 20+ points) list is:

1. Townsend

Holly - 38 (grand)foals - 24 racers - 2 MSP - 1 SW - 6 MSWs - 46

points

2. That's Debatable - 23 (grand)foals - 12 racers - 0 MSP - 1 SW - 5

MSWs - 41 points
3. Hollywood Queen - 27 (grand)foals - 14

racers - 1 MSP - 1 SW - 5 MSWs - 39 points
4. Midnight Magic -

16 (grand)foals - 8 racers - 0 MSP - 0 SW - 4 MSWs - 30

points

5. Nation's Pride - 25 (grand)foals - 15 racers - 2 MSP - 4 SW - 2

MSWs - 30 points
6. Seeing Starz - 22 (grand)foals - 11 racers

- 0 MSP - 1 SW - 4 MSWs - 26 points
7. Miss Hayday - 21

(grand)foals - 12 racers - 1 MSP - 1 SW - 4 MSWs - 25 points
8.

Evening Flame - 24 (grand)foals - 10 racers - 0 MSP - 3 SW - 2 MSWs - 22

points

9. Highland Sorceress - 11 (grand)foals - 6 racers - 0 MSP - 2 SW - 3

MSWs - 21 points
10. Ifyoucouldseemenow - 27 (grand)foals - 11

racers - 1 MSP - 2 SW - 2 MSWs - 21 points
11. Lymerick - 19

(grand)foals - 7 racers - 1 MSP - 0 SW - 3 MSWs - 21 points
12.

Doubletake - 13 (grand)foals - 7 racers - 0 MSP - 0 SW - 3 MSWs - 20

points

13. Lady Temperance - 13 (grand)foals - 6 racers - 2 MSP - 1 SW - 2

MSWs - 20 points
14. Second Chance - 10 (grand)foals - 6 racers

- 0 MSP - 0 SW - 3 MSWs - 20 points
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« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2005, 01:03:17 AM »

Quote from: Shanthi


1. Highland Rogue - 372 (grand)foals - 137 racers - 13 MSPs - 20 SWs - 37 MSWs -

319.5 points
2. Seattle Slew - 199 (grand)foals - 105 racers -

10 MSPs - 8 SWs - 14 MSWs - 146 points
3. What's It Worth -

276 (grand)foals - 66 racers - 6 MSPs - 10 SWs - 19 MSWs - 133

points

4. Secretariat - 157 (grand)foals - 56 racers - 1 MSP - 6 SWs - 12

MSWs - 103 points
I would personally

suggest this list of sires as our initial set of chef-de-race sires.  Does anyone have any

comments/alterations/suggestions to make on that list?
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« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2005, 01:08:02 AM »

Quote from: Shanthi


1. Townsend Holly - 38 (grand)foals - 24 racers - 2 MSP - 1 SW - 6 MSWs - 46

points

2. That's Debatable - 23 (grand)foals - 12 racers - 0 MSP - 1 SW - 5

MSWs - 41 points
3. Hollywood Queen - 27 (grand)foals - 14

racers - 1 MSP - 1 SW - 5 MSWs - 39 points
5. Nation's Pride -

25 (grand)foals - 15 racers - 2 MSP - 4 SW - 2 MSWs - 30

points

7. Miss Hayday - 21 (grand)foals - 12 racers - 1 MSP - 1 SW - 4 MSWs -

25 points
I would suggest this list as our

initial Reines de Course list, as it is the list of the mares who made the top "10" both as

dams and as dams of dams.

Again, comments/suggestions/etc?
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« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2005, 01:09:15 AM »

Quote from: CascadeJade
I have a question though, will this be automated so that

when a new stud qualies himself he'll be added to the list on maybe a page that updates

itself like some of your other breeding pages?
That depends on what

counts as "qualifies himself" ;)  Once we figure that out, sure, automating it should be

pretty straightforward.
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« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2005, 01:45:18 AM »

 Those look great and the

proportion of studs to mares seems right. :) Looks like you really got into this ;)
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« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2005, 02:00:55 AM »

 I guess...It was mainly just

playing around with sorting in Excel.  ;)
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« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2005, 02:02:33 AM »

 So I propose the following

breakdown of distances for the chef-de-race classifications.

Brilliant - 5-6f flat, 5-7.5f

SC
Intermediate - 6.5-8.5f flat, 8-10f SC
Classic - 9-11f flat, 10.5-13f SC
Solid -

11.5-13.5f flat, 13.5-15f SC
Professional - 14f+ flat, 15.5f+ SC

Comments/suggestions?

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« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2005, 02:35:00 AM »

 Yeah I'd say those are

about right. You wouldn't want them any longer or shorter. I'm not too sure about what the

racing divisions are over there, but if you were in Aussie they'd

be:
1000-1200m
1300-1700m
1800-2200m
2300-2700m
2800+

I think maybe the brilliant

section might be able to go up 1/2 a furlong to 6.5F/1300m.
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« Reply #29 on: March 25, 2005, 02:45:28 AM »

 I'm trying to keep each

division at a ~2f range, and I figure if one division has to get short-changed it may as well

be the Brilliant division since that one would have the fewest races anyway.
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« Reply #30 on: March 25, 2005, 03:44:03 AM »

 Yeah fair enough... :) This

looks cool. So the idea is that we have to basically breed a foal that has as many of these

horses as possible? :) That'd be fun... Hard, but fun. Or, we can just stick to breeding

random champions. That's fun too. This game is just way too much fun. I'm tired.
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« Reply #31 on: March 25, 2005, 03:52:31 AM »

 The distances look fine.

It's the SC that that's got me. Will you have seperate chefs for SC? or just use the SC

distances, and put a percentage designation for the number of jumpers and than the brilliant,

classic etc.

Now that you've found the base group you might want to consider all the

horses winners. It will give you a broader base to judge by.
 
I believe normal dosage is

figured through 5 generations so actually this whole thing should get better with age

;)

Jason the idea is to be able to choose breedings that will produce certain types of

runners, or at least have an idea of your colts predisposed strengths. You still have to

judge surface, and rate of maturity by looking at the horses racing foals, and the stud's

own record. top breeders don't just breed a lot of horses and get lucky. they plan their

breedings to match what they want the foals to become.
 
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KindleHopeFarms
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« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2005, 04:07:03 AM »

 freakin' AWESOME

Shanthi!

Yeah...  cheqs got the right idea... I think it'll definitely help with breeding

statistics... and it's fun to crunch numbers anyway!

ROCKING MY WORLD!

Kerry
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« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2005, 09:14:32 AM »

 Hehe, yeah Kerry, it's fun

to crunch numbers... Numbers of foals! ;) I'm thinking next year I'm going to try and breed

some 'specific' foals... We'll see...
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« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2005, 11:14:52 AM »

Quote from: Cheq
The

distances look fine. It's the SC that that's got me. Will you have seperate chefs for SC?

or just use the SC distances, and put a percentage designation for the number of jumpers and

than the brilliant, classic etc.

Now that you've found the base group you might want to

consider all the horses winners. It will give you a broader base to judge by.

I think we'll just have one master list of chef-de-race sires, as

that's the case in real life as well.  For example, according to
href='
http://www.equiery.com/archives/Steeplechase/LeadingSires.html'

target='_blank'>this site, Vaguely Noble is the #5 SC sire for 1991-1995, yet on the

chef-de-race he's just in with the others as a C/P sire, with no designation for being a

jumping sire.

Also, take a horse like Highland Rogue.  No one can dispute the fact that he

throws VERY nice jumpers, and yet a ton of his horses did well on the flat, as well (Highland

Raven, anyone?).

As you told Jason, the chef-de-race classification basically tells you a

distance range to aim for, you still have to judge surface - which includes steeplechase.  

;)


As for your second statement, what do you mean?  "All the horses winners" meaning

what?
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« Reply #35 on: March 25, 2005, 11:21:23 AM »

Quote from: KindleHopeFarms
Yeah...  cheqs got the right idea... I think it'll

definitely help with breeding statistics... and it's fun to crunch numbers anyway!

Hey Kerry,

Other than as a cool eye-catcher, is there any

statistical merit to having a Reine-de-Course in a horse's pedigree?  (i.e. something like a

Dosage figure but incorporating the females as well)  I haven't seen one anywhere (other

than the GSV, which purposefully leaves out females because they're too hard to calculate).

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« Reply #36 on: March 25, 2005, 01:05:36 PM »

 What I meant was not just

stakes winners/placers, but at least allowance winners. I'm willing to bet that our chef's

will be predominately I or C or both just because that's where most of the big money races

are. Start throwing in other winners you'll get a better picture of where his foals run

best. With as small a pool of horses as we have I think broading the base might give a

clearer picture. I would love to have something besides the GOT ro judge my horses by.
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« Reply #37 on: March 25, 2005, 02:06:13 PM »

 Ah,  yes.  My basic plan for

figuring out chef-de-race classifications is to take every race their foals have run at and

probably weight them (so an allowance would be worth so much, a G1 stakes would be worth so

much, etc), and then figure out which classification(s) has the highest weighting.  Earnings

will likely have nothing to do with it, since you have races that are the same

distance/grade, but have wildly different purses.
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« Reply #38 on: March 25, 2005, 05:07:14 PM »

 Reines De Course

unfortunately doesn't have any merit in dosage, I think largely because the industry is so

"stallion-oriented"...  It could also be due to the fact that mares normally have a maximum

of 9-14 offspring in their entire lives, whereas stallions have hundreds if not thousands...  

People can become more familiar with a stallion simply by shear quantity of high quality

offspring... mares have a much harder time with that... obviously... :lol: In Dr. Roman's

jargon, I think that defeats what he's trying to accomplish in a way too, the familiarity

aspect: How many superstar broodmares can you name in comparison to stallions? Or better

yet... broodmares know for producing *runners* not stallions.... ( so mares like Terlingua,

Gold Digger, Sharp Queen are *really* important, but only in terms of mothering fabulous

stallions (Storm Cat, Mr.Prospector, Kris.S respectively), so they 'don't count') People

aren't as familiar with them... ( and Somethingroyal is too easy..:P)
Although, that

doesn't keep you from doing it Shanthi! :-D My suggestion would be to treat them similarly

to stallions: classify them with the dosage system based on their offspring (it might not be

as accurate as a stallions would obviously)... the only issue is if you run across a Reines

De Course mare that is sired by a Chef De Race; it might give you screwy numbers.. I'm only

speculating though, I don't know for sure... I think the way they do it right now, is simply

that the more Reines De Course mares you have in a pedigree, the better bred the horse is...  

It's not a numerical system at all...
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« Reply #39 on: March 25, 2005, 05:33:51 PM »

 So here are the results, and

my tentative classifications, for our 4 chef-de-race stallions.  I used the same point system

that we use for racing (broken down by maiden/allowance/stakes).

Highland

Rogue - I/C

BRILLIANT:
367(27)-84(4)-58(4)-45(6)-41(4) -

627pts
INTERMEDIATE:
587(117)-120(14)-75(13)-79(10)-81(18) -

1598pts
CLASSIC:
278(113)-63(21)-43(12)-31(12)-41(15) -

1577pts
SOLID:
110(24)-21(1)-17(2)-15(2)-13(4) - 314pts
PROFESSIONAL:
39(5)-10-5-6-2 -

31pts

Seattle Slew - I
BRILLIANT:
65(3)-7-8(1)-8(1)-8 -

52pts
INTERMEDIATE:
87(19)-14(3)-11(3)-16(4)-17(6) -

362pts
CLASSIC:
34(7)-10(1)-8(3)-3(1)-2(1) - 177pts
SOLID:
22(6)-7-2(1)-6(4)-5(1) -

91pts
PROFESSIONAL:
13(2)-2-3(1)-1-0 - 27pts

What's It Worth -

I

BRILLIANT:
268(51)-56(10)-44(9)-43(4)-17(2) -

884pts
INTERMEDIATE:
432(127)-99(21)-62(17)-71(22)-52(18) -

2071pts
CLASSIC:
170(79)-43(14)-21(9)-31(19)-19(9) -

1210pts
SOLID:
88(25)-20(6)-19(6)-14(4)-13(3) -

519pts
PROFESSIONAL:
47(16)-11(5)-10(3)-6(1)-7(2) - 327pts

Secretariat -

I

BRILLIANT:
95(10)-14(1)-17(2)-15(2)-12(1) -

169pts
INTERMEDIATE:
150(24)-18(3)-31(8)-23(2)-22(3) -

450pts
CLASSIC:
69(22)-9(1)-8(2)-14(3)-10(7) - 221pts
SOLID:
22(1)-2-4-1-4 -

20pts
PROFESSIONAL:
5-3-0-1-0 - 6pts
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« Reply #40 on: March 25, 2005, 05:43:36 PM »

 For the Reines de Course, we

have:

Townsend Holly -

B/I

BRILLIANT:
49(7)-12(1)-10(1)-9(1)-4(1) -

117pts
INTERMEDIATE:
69(17)-15(2)-12(1)-12(4)-8 - 229pts
CLASSIC:
21(5)-2-5(1)-3(1)-0 -

39pts
SOLID:
3(1)-0-1-0-0 - 1pts
PROFESSIONAL:
4-1-0-1-1 - 5pts

That's

Debatable - I

BRILLIANT:
36-10-2-8-1 -

22pts
INTERMEDIATE:
45(5)-10-6(2)-7-5 - 69pts
CLASSIC:
27(5)-6-5-6(1)-1 -

33pts
SOLID:
10(2)-2-2-1-1(1) - 21pts
PROFESSIONAL:
4-0-1-0-0 -

1pts

Hollywood Queen - I/P
BRILLIANT:
46(2)-12-9(1)-6-3 -

53pts
INTERMEDIATE:
86(12)-18(2)-22(4)-15(1)-8 - 272pts
CLASSIC:
16(1)-6-2-1-2 -

31pts
SOLID:
11(4)-3-3(1)-3(2)-0 - 49pts
PROFESSIONAL:
9(6)-2(2)-0-1(1)-1(1) -

101pts

Nation's Pride - I/C
BRILLIANT:
62(3)-6-11-6(1)-11

- 39pts
INTERMEDIATE:
99(15)-13(3)-10(1)-21(6)-16(3) -

278pts
CLASSIC:
50(19)-6(3)-11(4)-11(5)-9(5) - 322pts
SOLID:
15(3)-1-3(2)-3-3 -

54pts
PROFESSIONAL:
9-2-1-0-1 - 5pts

Miss Hayday -

C

BRILLIANT:
41(2)-14(1)-4-4-4(1) -

91pts
INTERMEDIATE:
61(6)-19(1)-17(1)-5-6(1) - 158pts
CLASSIC:
23-2-4-3-4 -

11pts
SOLID:
4-0-0-2-1 - pts
PROFESSIONAL:
3-0-0-0-0 - pts
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« Reply #41 on: March 25, 2005, 06:51:43 PM »

 Looks beautiful...  I'm

sure you've thought of this already: to save you time and energy I hope you plan to automate

it...:D  Just in case That's Debatable suddenly becomes professional when Major's Flight

wins lots and lots of REALLY LONG stakes races...;) you won't have to do it by hand....  ( I

should be dragged out into the street and shot...:P)
Kerry
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« Reply #42 on: March 25, 2005, 06:58:33 PM »

 Yep, this'll all be

automated eventually.

(And I think at this point, I should be

dragged out in the street and shot.  ;)  Especially since I'm finding all this random

number-crunching code rather fun...)
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« Reply #43 on: March 25, 2005, 07:21:17 PM »

 Yes, that's quite wierd

Shanthi... :P

Anyway, this all looks really cool. So basically, every good line in the

race seems to be intermediate right? It is quite interesting when you put it all like that.

:) I'm still a little confused, but I'm sure it will come to me sooner or later.

Another

great feature from Shanthi... When's it gonna stop?! :P
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« Reply #44 on: March 25, 2005, 08:08:03 PM »

 now you need a standard for

each classification. Just because a horse qualifies as a chef doesn't mean he's a chef in

each catagory.

I don't think you really had to weight the races, because were just

looking for distances. But I don't know that it makes any difference either. And the numbers

are about what I expected since the majority of races seem to be in the I,C area.

I think

every horse we designated a chef qualifies at his highest catagory than a set number that is

needed to qualify for a second catagory. 1500 would be my choice but that's arbitrary.  
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« Reply #45 on: March 25, 2005, 08:14:42 PM »

 When you start crunching

numbers like this it does become a bit addictive(except for Jason) since you begin to realize

that they way you approach them tends to push the answer in a specific direction. B)  
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« Reply #46 on: March 25, 2005, 09:15:08 PM »

 The qualifications I'm

thinking of would be something along the lines of:

To qualify as a chef-de-race at all, a

sire must have at least 300 points in any given category, as well as having SW horses as

foals and grandfoals.
To qualify as a chef-de-race in multiple categories, a sire must have

at most a 10% difference in scores (for example, 1000 and 1100 in 2 categories would work,

1000 and 1200 would mean he only gets the 1200 category).  Also, I would suggest that both

categories' scores must be at least 1,000.

For mares, I would suggest:
To qualify as a

reine-de-course at all, a mare must have at least 50 points in any given category, as well as

having SW horses as foals and grandfoals.
To qualify as a reine-de-course in multiple

categories, a mare must have at least 100 points in each category.  In the (rare) case of

having 100+ points in 3+ categories, the top 2 would be used.

Comments/suggestions?
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« Reply #47 on: March 25, 2005, 09:22:25 PM »

 Yup I like that, they seem

pretty fair. We don't want a host of horses qualifying as that would defeat the purpose...

:) Yay this is fun.
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« Reply #48 on: March 25, 2005, 10:21:22 PM »

 It 's all good  :D  no

matter how we got there we both have Rogue as the only double. this can only get better as

the data base expands, and you see how accurate it is. The quals might need to be tweeked if

the game expands in some major way :)

Jason this is fun because Shanthi's doing the

drudge work ;)  
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« Reply #49 on: March 26, 2005, 04:41:03 PM »

 I've set up a page to

calculate the potential qualifiers for chef-de-race studs, and it comes up with this

list:

What's It Worth (218): B-884, I-2068, C-1251, S-561, P-326
Cigar (34): B-173,

I-909, C-195, S-11, P-2
Highland Rogue (35): B-628, I-1598, C-1619, S-363, P-31
Alydar

(19): B-102, I-454, C-495, S-42, P-0
Secretariat (16): B-169, I-450, C-228, S-20,

P-6
Townsend Prince (210): B-45, I-348, C-340, S-25, P-2
Seattle Slew (21): B-58, I-381,

C-184, S-101, P-27
Bold Ruler (14): B-569, I-494, C-143, S-0, P-0

So we may want to set

the minimum at 500 points in any given category, which would give us 3 current chef-de-races:

Highland Rogue, What's It Worth, and Cigar, with Alydar, Secretariat, and Bold Ruler being

close to qualifying.

Comments/suggestions?
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« Reply #50 on: March 26, 2005, 05:16:31 PM »

 wouldn't Bold Ruler make it

in the Brilliant catagory with 569? and if so that would give 4 horses that qualify. I think

500 is a good cut off, since this is supposed to be the creme-de-la-creme. Right?


 
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« Reply #51 on: March 26, 2005, 09:04:50 PM »

 So I think the "final"

official list is as follows:

Chef-de-Race
Highland Rogue

(35): B-1354, I-3884, C-2886, S-781, P-158
Cross Roads

(205): B-532, I-1659, C-1005, S-248, P-74
The Black (10):

B-460, I-850, C-241, S-57, P-9
Secretariat (16): B-379,

I-962, C-365, S-120, P-86
Cigar (34): B-340, I-1139, C-469,

S-11, P-2



Reines-de-Course
Second

Chance (132): B-503, I-296, C-162, S-49, P-0 [B/I]
Hollywood

Queen (133): B-174, I-713, C-165, S-199, P-101 [I/S]
Townsend

Holly (32): B-167, I-627, C-109, S-1, P-45 [B/I]
Lady

Temperence (236): B-12, I-104, C-240, S-29, P-0 [I/C]
That's

Debatable (111): B-62, I-233, C-101, S-31, P-1 [I/C]
Tea Time

(63): B-154, I-10, C-3, S-0, P-0
Lymerick (58): B-10, I-20,

C-140, S-0, P-0 [C]
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« Reply #52 on: March 26, 2005, 09:11:34 PM »

 The only questoin is what to

do with Rogue.  ;)  He obviously outstrips the other sires in B, I, and C, but given the 10%

rule he only classifies as I.

So, possibly if the sire has 2+ categories with over 2,000

points, then he would qualify for both?
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« Reply #53 on: March 26, 2005, 09:14:31 PM »

 Well I guess that works, he

has to be given some consideration... :P
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Cheq
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« Reply #54 on: March 26, 2005, 10:18:15 PM »

 How did you come up with the

last set of numbers up untill them Rogue would have qualified as I,C?

Foget it not a big

deal
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Cheq
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« Reply #55 on: March 26, 2005, 10:27:35 PM »

 Now the trick is to teach

people to use this right. ;)  
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Cheq
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« Reply #56 on: March 26, 2005, 10:36:49 PM »

 One wierd question where did

Easy Goer end up? Being damsire to Rogue I would have thought would get him a ton of points

out of that bloodline.
 
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« Reply #57 on: March 26, 2005, 10:46:16 PM »

 Sires only get points for

foals and grandfoals, which means that Rogue's foals don't count for EG.
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« Reply #58 on: March 26, 2005, 10:50:04 PM »

 Is there anyway to tell for

steeplechase? Or do we just think 'oh yep, he was good and has high points...'? I know

I've got a couple of nice jumping mares that should ideally be bred to a jumping sire, or

possibly a turf sire. Or maybe I'm missing the point of this altogether... :blink:  
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« Reply #59 on: March 26, 2005, 11:31:11 PM »

 I have now revised the Hall

of Fame to show the chef-de-race and reine-de-course horses, so please refer to that for the

current list.
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Cheq
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« Reply #60 on: March 27, 2005, 01:22:24 AM »

 this is for distance not

surface Jason
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JasonCameron
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« Reply #61 on: March 27, 2005, 02:17:02 AM »

 Yeah, I realise now, Shanthi

and I were talking about it before. But yeah, who would have though numbers could be so

helpful? This is really cool for breeding and stuff. It's fun trying to think about how you

could make a horse with heaps of those lines in it! ;)
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« Reply #62 on: January 07, 2008, 04:36:53 AM »

I love looking at the lines. It does help on choosing the breedings, even my buys! Awsome system.
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