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Final Furlong Forum - Pricing of Horses

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Final Furlong Forum  |  General  |  Comments and Suggestions  |  Topic: Pricing of Horses
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Argus Sheldrake
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« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2006, 10:15:54 PM »

Alright whoever doesn't shop around for a bargain has more than enough money to loose.  Most new players are going to look for bargains, as they don't have a lot of money and it often takes a lot of time to start making enough to compete with the rest of you.  

As for bias against geldings I have no bias against a gelding that is young enough to race and earn back money and can have the potential to be solid allwance horses.  As if they are gelded there's not much purpose in stakes racing them.  However if they will do well I would give them a shot at it.

And as for someone questioning about why I am asking for the price I am and offering me another price, I'm open to people asking me about horses I put up for sale.  Right now I don't have any horses I can sell.  I currently have a filly I'm looking at putting up for sale when I can since I need to sell her in order to keep my other horses able to run.  She's got great producers in her background.  So of course I think she has potential to do well for someone that wants to race her.  I'm trying to give my racing colt the chance to be a stallion, however if he doesn't show me some promise he's going to be a gelding.  As there's not much sense in keeping an allowance horse as a stallion since I won't be able to use him as a stallion.
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Mintano
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« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2006, 12:30:16 AM »

Quote
As if they are gelded there's not much purpose in stakes racing them. However if they will do well I would give them a shot at it.


There's no reason why geldings can't run in, and win stakes races. There are quite a few good stakes running geldings out there: Danzigitty, Do You Dare, Seducer and What's The Point.

I purchased Storming River in December. I have raced him three times since I purchase him. In his past two races he has run in stakes, he won a Grade 3, and came in second in a Grade 1. I purchase him for $50,000 he has won $100,000 since I purchased him. He's not exactly in his prime either, he's in his six-year old season.

So really, there's plenty of reason to run geldings in stakes, they have just as much a chance of winning as colts, more even since they shouldn't have the testosterone running through their veins to distract them.
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Andrea
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« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2006, 01:09:33 AM »

Not to mention horses like Funny Cide and the real Lonesome Glory... both of those horses were geldings who won big.  Lonesome Glory won an Eclipse award multiple years for his SC talents and Funny Cide won the first two legs of the Triple Crown.  Are you saying they shouldn't have been entered in stakes races because they can't breed?

Also, if you're running a stallion in stakes races and he's not placing in the top 5 more than 50% of the time, he probably doesn't belong in them.  Why does everyone want to retire their horses to stud?  I already know I'm losing money on all but 2 of my stallions this year (Planet Hollywood and Cross Roads).  Unless you can charge 10k for a breeding and get 10 outside mares a year, you can't nominate to the Breeder's Cup without losing money.  And there are tons of $1,000-$5,000 studs out there that you can breed to who are nice and you'll STILL save money because you don't have to pay taxes on the stallion.

This game is off balance (not through Shanthi's fault) because people aren't interested in horses who are male and not MSW or unraced maidens.  That's like 45% of the horses in FF who are undervalued because of their gender, not their potential earnings.  The same horse as a filly would bring over 10x more.  Buy geldings and race them in claimers and allowances.  My allowance horses make me more money than almost all of my stakes horses if you look at the bottom line.  Simply because their entry fees are cheaper and they can compete more successfully and I don't have to waste money on nominations for them.
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Smylie
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« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2006, 02:13:14 PM »

I don't know what the real world numbers are but I'm thinking that at least 75% of the males are geldings. That leaves the rest to be running in 2 and 3 yr old stakes and very few older Allowance horses(Stallions). And as has been said in other places here we are moving towards a more realistic Final Furlong race world. One with more claiming races that will get smart owners more quick cash to fuel the breeding dream of the perfect racehorse that wins every race it enters....... Well it is a dream....
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KindleHopeFarms
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« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2006, 03:02:51 PM »

Not to disagree w/ you Smylie, but I actually think most of the males are colts because they want the hormones to increase competitive drive. They cut them later in life when they outlive their breeding potential in terms of highest economic efficiency ( they prefer to retire colts w/ less than 10 starts, and try to make them BIG BIG races)...


Quote from: Argus Sheldrake
Alright whoever doesn't shop around for a bargain has more than enough money to loose.  Most new players are going to look for bargains, as they don't have a lot of money and it often takes a lot of time to start making enough to compete with the rest of you.  


I'm not saying that bargains aren't a necessity in FF, but my point is that you can't expect *every* horse to be 50% or less of what it's worth. And when we buy those 'bargains' we're negatively impacting the economy of FF because we dilute the average price of a horse, which in turn, undercuts our own sales when we offer our own horses to other players. Whether we like it or not, we need to pay the appropriate premium for high caliber horses.  The bargains I've picked up have been unintentional and pure luck. Those were horses that were negatively valued by the market... I hate to keep using him as an example, and I'm sure everyone is tired of it, but Best Kept Secret. I bought him for $500 from an auction because someone cut him loose, and there was no interest in him because he was a colt by an unproven, albeit famous stallion.
On the opposite end, I paid over $1million for Must Be Magic. As a stallion, I know he'll never make it back, but that's not what I look for in studs for KindleHope. I've taken a gamble, especially considering that when we had BP ratings, his was low enough to warrant him being barred from stud-hood. That changed when other low-BP stallions proved to be successful.

I guess my point is that we can't attempt to 'cheat' eachother in either side of the purchase/sale of a horse.  If you aren't willing to pay what the owner of the horse asks, re-evaluate why you wouldn't. If it's because you don't have the money, frankly, you shouldn't buy the horse. Don't try to get a GI winner for pennies, and don't try to buy a foal for less than it's stud fee.  That's unfair to the big players.  Look for horses within your budget.  I know there are plenty of high caliber allowance horses that are big money earners. You have to work for a stakes winner: believe me, I know! Alternatively, the best you can do is hope to get lucky. The nice thing is that it's very easy to do in FF.  Geldings are fabulous $$ earners. And we all started with the newbie budget: $100,000 is easy to get good horses.
In direct contrast with that, don't *intend* to sell your back-yard claiming nag for millions. Your expenses on the horse is a good way to start. Add any gut feeling for pedigree. If you come out with an outrageous number, chances are your *personal attachment* to the horse is high enough that its worth MORE TO YOU than any other person. My advice: DON'T SELL.
I don't think I would ever sell Actor or any of her foals because I know they would be worth more to me, than someone like Starz Afire is worth to the rest of the community.
And truthfully, as a senior member I have one crab-apple statement which isn't directed at anyone specifically:
But please, don't complain about the prices of horses being to high, because Shanthi and Andrea are too nice and they'll take action about it to make everyone happy. Work a little harder, or ask someone for advice. Don't whine... It just ticks us all off and makes more work for the people who already devote their life to making this an amazing experience for all of us. Look and learn.
kk I have to go to class now... perhaps I'll add more later
-Kerry
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Argus Sheldrake
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« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2006, 03:13:39 PM »

I just like how this has gotten to this when the initail question was why are some contacted and not others about the pricing of their horses.  If someone doesn't deem a horse worth a certain price then that person doesn't have to buy it.  HEck everyone could believe that the horse isn't worth the price, and then the owner would have to either decide to keep the horse, or lower the price.  Just like in real life.


I guess I should ad that contact from someone wanting to see if they can offer you another amount is fine.
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Cheq
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« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2006, 03:20:08 PM »

The printed word is open to wide and varied interpretation :wink:
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Shanthi
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« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2006, 05:00:06 PM »

Quote from: Argus Sheldrake
I just like how this has gotten to this when the initail question was why are some contacted and not others about the pricing of their horses.


If that was your original point, then the answer is:
Free speech

If I personally have a problem with the price you're setting for a horse ("you" being a general term, not you personally), I may decide to e-mail you and ask you why you set that price, if I have the time/energy/inclination.  That's not to say that I'll ask/force you to drop your price, or anything, but mostly because I want to hear justification of the price.

The reason for this?  Protectiveness.  ;)   :roll:  Some of these prices are feasibly within a new(ish) member's budget, and new(ish) members aren't generally familiar enough with the game/bloodlines to know what's worth $100k and what's not.  So when I see a 5yo stallion who's won 1 race as a 2yo and managed to place 3rd in 15 starts this year up for sale for $150,000, I'm concerned that someone may think "Oh wow!  A stallion!  Maybe I can get him qualified!" (Which is a whole 'nother sore point with me, since as Andrea/Kerry stated above, stallions are SO much easier to deal with when you don't own them).

I'll also step in when I have a personal interest in the matter.  I've sold a few horses to a certain stable, and they were making deals to get other horses...totally fine.  But I did ask them to let me know if they were no longer interested in owning the horse(s) I sold them, because I still liked them, and I'd rather pay money to have them back (and thus enable said stable to buy different horses) than to see them get shuffled around from owner to owner and probably end up back in Final Furlong ownership.

Likewise, if I give a new member a really great deal (i.e. selling a millionaire for 15k, and so on), I'm generally not impressed/happy when they turn around a month later and try and sell said horse for $300,000.  While the horse may be worth that, I took a significant loss to be nice, and if the person doesn't want the horse anymore, I'd prefer they either offer it back to me for the purchase price (assuming they made money on him racing), or offer it up to some other new member for a good price.
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Argus Sheldrake
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« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2006, 05:08:24 PM »

Thank you Shanthi for that explination.
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Smylie
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« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2006, 05:12:35 PM »

Quote from: KindleHopeFarms
Not to disagree w/ you Smylie, but I actually think most of the males are colts because they want the hormones to increase competitive drive. They cut them later in life when they outlive their breeding potential in terms of highest economic efficiency ( they prefer to retire colts w/ less than 10 starts, and try to make them BIG BIG races)...

Please disagree away!!!!  :lol: I do in fact agree with what you said and it does make a lot of sense. The colts do need the testosterone to develop. Hence the agreement with cutting them later in life after they have developed to adulthood. If I'm reading between the lines with this and Shanthi's latest post is that if they are 4 or older and have run in stakes and not placed it's likely they won't! Therefore it's time to geld them and make excellent claimer/allowance racers out of them. Please feel free to disagree again! :lol:
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Andrea
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« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2006, 05:16:04 PM »

Also, since we typically try to contact people via PM or IM, you may or may not know when we've contacted someone about their pricing.  Some people may have been contacted and then chosen to ignore us.
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MJM_RACING
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« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2006, 05:57:52 PM »

Yes...Yes I sold a gelding for 50,000...a 5-yr old maiden gelding.
My price is defended here:

First and foremost, I think that the market to some level dictates how much a horse is to go for...if I say 100,000 and nobody bites..then I try 75,000 and nobody bites..then the market is saying..that price is too high.
Market condidtions can range from available cash to all players(which i believe is high given the costs of vet,jockey,trainer,food...etc are not factored in yet...(which i look forward to some day)..So ALOT of money that is won in purses is kept). None of this is a critique but more of an observation. Since this is a simulation game..that goal for me is two-fold build an excellent barn with champions/stud's/broodmares..to do that you need horses and money..
Other market conditions that exsist are the amount of horses up for sell...generally this is a low, low amount...there are never really any horses up for sale on the sales page...market is favoring sellers in this case.

so i feel that in buying and selling horses the price does depend (in some ways) to the market.

As for the horse...I dont know...50,000...doesnt seem too high
Yes this horse hasnt won a race yet....But has shown some promise since moving to the Steeplechase races. Has been competitive in Allowance company. Still is a young 4 years, out of a 25K stud. Has reacted to different combinations of equipment.
I didnt have the time to really figure this horse out so I sold him.
He may or may not make 50,000 in purse money for the new owner.
There is also the chance that he wins alot more.

If the market didnt react to 50,000 then i may have brought the price down to 45, or 40 or put him in a 30K claimer race(the price I got him for)
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Shanthi
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« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2006, 06:04:38 PM »

Quote from: MJM_RACING
Market condidtions can range from available cash to all players(which i believe is high given the costs of vet,jockey,trainer,food...etc are not factored in yet...(which i look forward to some day).


All of those costs are lumped in as taxes.  The game will not be implementing feeding at any time.  ;)  Jockeys will likely charge a % of the winnings, once they're enabled, but training will be free, as you are the trainer.  Vet checks are in the works, but will only be a factor if your horse is injured.
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Shanthi
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« Reply #28 on: February 09, 2006, 06:15:57 PM »

Quote from: MJM_RACING
As for the horse...I dont know...50,000...doesnt seem too high
Yes this horse hasnt won a race yet....But has shown some promise since moving to the Steeplechase races. Has been competitive in Allowance company. Still is a young 4 years, out of a 25K stud. Has reacted to different combinations of equipment.
I didnt have the time to really figure this horse out so I sold him.
He may or may not make 50,000 in purse money for the new owner.
There is also the chance that he wins alot more.


I have to disagree with you there, for several reasons:

1. The gender - geldings are useful for making money, that's it.  If the horse hasn't won a race in 26 starts on 3 different surfaces, chances are he's never going to win a race.  Some horses just aren't cut out to win races.  (Also note that this horse has been tried on every distance range with no success, and every track with no success...the only thing he hasn't encountered is a slow track, but given his dislike for good/wet tracks, I can't imagine more wetness would help any.)

2. The age - the "average" horse in FF is mature for 1-2 years.  The "average" horse also matures by age 3.  That means that, at most, this horse is most likely to be a hasbeen within the next 6 months..that's not going to increase his chances of winning a race, nor will they increase his chances of winning back $50,000 anytime soon.

3. His race earnings - the horse has only won $21,600...that alone would be my main argument against putting him up for sale for $50,000.  Even if "the market" will support such a high price for a horse who hasn't proven he can earn it back, that doesn't mean you should ask said price.

4. His bloodlines - yes, they don't matter for breeding purposes, but they do indicate his potential, or lack thereof.  His female line is nothing to write home about, and his sire is famous but not overly successful in the game.

I didn't question you on your price because I figured any of the above things (esp. #1 and #3) were fairly obvious to all members.  If someone wants to spend $50,000 on a horse who hasn't even won half that on the track in 2 years of racing, that's their deal and I wish them luck with it.  If you had been asking any more than $50,000 (or if you'd been offering him to new members only), I probably would've asked you to defend yourself, and given you the above counterargument against your defense.  ;)
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Shanthi
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« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2006, 07:06:56 PM »

As a random side note, I just sold Unleashed for $15,000 to new members only.

He's 3, a gelding, and a maiden, which were the factors I used to determine his purchase price.  The other factors I used were his bloodlines (he's 1/2 to 2 MSWs, 1 SW, and 2 SP horses, and by a famous sire), which is why he wasn't priced at $3,500 (1/2 of his race earnings).  Also, since he's just turned 3, he's likely still maturing, and probably has a good 18 months of solid racing in him, at least.

The catch?  I lost $359,150 on him, including the money he brought in for his purchase price.  He's nominated to 8 races in 2010 (which he may never run in but did cost me money to nominate him for), as well as the Breeders' Cup and the Breeders' Series.

I possibly could've gotten someone to pay $75,000 for him based on his age/bloodlines (and potentially more if he weren't gelded).  But since he is gelded, and he doesn't seem to be living up to his bloodlines quite yet, I don't need him in my barn.  So I figured I'd be nice and let a new member take a chance on him.

I guess that's why I bother to "step in" when I see outrageous prices.  Treat others the way you want to be treated yourself, and in my case, ask others to behave that way as well.  ;)
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