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Author Topic: Sale Prices?  (Read 2566 times)

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Offline rainee

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Re: Sale Prices?
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2009, 11:19:50 pm »
I know the game is not meant to be fair I just mean if you put less horses in the game wide auction than there are players in the game most people aren't going to get one. I know that the bidding thing is obvious, I just mean that even if 30 players get their 5 and no one elase gets one at least people could have had one. I know that we all miss out on things we cannot afford but most of the horses in the auctions on day one and two go for $1k each. So if it is a game run auction with 150 horses in it some will get 5 some will get none but at lease there is the opportunity at the start for all to get a chance at one.

And there are horses owned by FF foaled in 2003 that are still listed as active racers. As it is FF currently runs 5200 races a year with a minimum of 6 slots in a race making a minimum of 31,200 slots open for racing. If we retired most of the older races owned by FF (183 foaled in 2005 and earlier - 420 foaled in 2006 and earlier), the younger more competitive racers (many of whom have game sires and dams, whose breeding rankings suffer due to a low number of starts earned by their FF owned offspring) would have a chance to run more often instead of a handful of times per year. Anyway if we retired the FF owned horses foaled in '05 or earlier (they will be aged 9-11 as of Jan. 1), each remaining FF horse would get 7-8 starts in the next year (and this is if we filled every SINGLE race with only FF horses). Now if we retired those born in '06 or earlier (Aged 8-11), each remaining horse would get roughly 8-9 starts. If you consider that those are without the coming FF 2yos figured in, that is quite a few starts.
   If you estimate that roughly two-thirds of those slots are filled with horses owned by stables other than FF (and this could be a larger percentage than what actually are owned by game stables), that is 10,400 slots still open for FF owned horses. If you just remove the '05 and earlier horses each remaining FF  horse (excluding 2yos) gets roughly 2-3 races per year while if you remove '06 and earlier it is about the same.
       So there are more than enough FF horses to fill races as it is if we remove the horses aged 8 and up from JUST the FF stable, it will solve the problem of less competitive horses and will also give other horses more of a chance to run and therefore if they are game-bred it will give their dams and sires a better value because those that are good will be solidified and those that are pretty terrible breeders can be phased out. And most stables that have horses aged 6-7 and up think of retirement due to the fact that most older horses cost more in entries and taxes in the long run than they bring in when they are 6 and up, so it is more economical to retire them. I may also get back to you with more precise information by age later. I just need to gather the information.

AS THE NUMBERS GO:
  • 452 horses born in 2006 and earlier ('03-'06) (making them 8yrs in 2014) are listed as active racers - 420 of those are owned by FF
  • 5,200 races/yr w/Min. 6 horses per race = 31,200 entries needed per year for minimum quota
  • With only FF horses in races the horses remaining w/o next year's 8-11yos and excluding '11 2yos, each FF horse would race only about 8-9 starts
  • When counting for the fact that only about 1/3 (possibly more like 1/4?) of the 31,200 min. entires are open to FF horses that cuts down the open slots for FF horses to 10,400 possible FF entries
  • That gives each remaining FF horse (excluding the aforementioned ages of racers) only about 2-3 starts per year
  • If only FF horses are retired when they reach age 8, it will create a more competetive environment in races that must be filled
  • Also-Keep in mind that if the FF owned racehorses are getting very few chances to race, mares and stallions that have amazing breeding potential but have foals owned only by FF, may not reach the same Breed Ranking as they might if more chances were available for them to run. If we retire 7yos their chances of starting will increase.
   
« Last Edit: December 27, 2009, 02:56:40 am by rainee »
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Offline Andy

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Re: Sale Prices?
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2009, 01:16:30 am »
That's all good but you just forgot one thing, FF horses only race when the spaces are empty, so they aren't denying any other horse a chance of racing.

btw - how many 8 year olds are still in the game  ???
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Offline rainee

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Re: Sale Prices?
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2009, 02:42:49 am »
If you read my whole post I took into account that only about 1/3 (probably a little less) of the post positions are open to FF racers. I understand how the FF horses are used to fill races to a minimum of 6 horses and my calculations are simply for 6 horse races, I was simply countering your argument that
Quote
"As for a retirement code, why would you want to take horses out of the game? A lot of races don't fill up now, removing some would only make it worse although your trainers comment for training is a good one."
The math clearly shows that there are plenty of FF owned horses to fill races without the horses ages 8 to 11 (note these ages are as of Jan 1 2014 due to the game being within 1 week of the new year). And owned by FF there are 406 horses of racing status aged 8 to 11. Outside of the FF stable there are an additional 32 horses of racing status aged 8 to 11.

NOTE: I was reading through my previous post and it does get hard to read due to the amount of information packed into such small letters (I went cross eyed myself.) so I will edit it and make it into bullets. And bullet the numbers so they're easy to find.
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Online Shanthi

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Re: Sale Prices?
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2009, 02:49:19 am »
FF horses existing or not existing is besides the issue. Yes, adding created horses dilutes the game population and potentially decreases the value of horses in general, but most of FF's horses are in-game ones.

I could stop breeding FF's broodmares every year (and, in fact, have barely bred ay this year due to lack of time), but then we'd have no horses available to auction.

FF horses are supposed to retie/be sold at age 7, I'll make sure that happens this year (since it apparently didn't happen for 2013).

Either way, that doesn't solve the issue that was originally brought up, which is that members are pricing their own horses badly.

Nan

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Re: Sale Prices?
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2009, 03:00:47 am »
I think that sounds like a really good idea.

Although I think the period a horse should be left on the sales board should be more like 2-3 weeks. I know I don't check the sales board that often, and other people might not log on for a week or two due to time constraints, so if we're going to get charged just for listing the horse I think there should be a suitable amount of time to make sure people saw the listing.

I agree. I'm fine with the idea of a listing fee. However, I'd prefer that you be allowed to have a horse on the page for a month before it gets taken down.

Offline rainee

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Re: Sale Prices?
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2009, 03:09:29 am »
Well could we remove the number of FF owned created mares that have not proven themselves?

I notice that many of the highly overpriced are owned by smaller and newer stables, the ones that don't last in the long term. I'm not really sure how to solve that problem. It may be the fact that we have so many good horses? Over-breeding? Lackluster broodstock being bred to high quality stallions so one can turn a profit? I think its really just FF's economic cycle. The only way that you can raise prices of VERY good horses is to make their bloodline less...available? yet there is no surefire way to drive down prices of those that are overpriced though. There will always be those horses whose prices make you chuckle simply because they are so high and they sit there for ages. But there are people that pay those prices, simply because they don't know or are willing to take a chance. The idea of a time limit would be the best idea for the time being. Personally I've had horses sit on the saleboard anywhere from a couple of hours to weeks and still sell. So I agree with Nan. A month sounds good to me. And a listing fee is fair.
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Online Shanthi

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Re: Sale Prices?
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2009, 06:32:42 pm »
I think a better way would be to have a flat 'listing fee' of $1000 (could be higher for pricing a horse over $100k, say $2k?) then a 3% fee when the horse sells.

It's hard to know what a horse is worth, only the market will tell you and to be stung 3% everytime would be a bit tough imho.

Well, this would be replacing the flat 5% tax you pay at year-end when the horse sells. However, the listing fee could be 2% rather than 3%...that way you can list the horse 2x and still pay less than you would have with the 5% sales tax, but any more than that and you start overpaying because you priced your horse incorrectly.

There's also nothing preventing people from posting a generic "This horse is available, let me know what you'd offer" post on the forum, which some stables have done.

conurexchick

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Re: Sale Prices?
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2009, 08:34:01 pm »
I have noticed horses over priced, but I feel that same way as already stated, that if they're over priced than they won't sell.  People will either realize their horses are over priced and change it, or just be stuck with the horse.  If someone feels an unproven filly is worth 50k than let them pay 50k.  If you don't feel the filly is worth 50k than don't buy her or message the owner offering something you feel is more reasonable.  I just don't think there's really a code to solve this issue.  This is part of what makes the game interesting and challenging, for me anyways.

Maybe there could be a guide, or way to estimate a horse's value?  Just to get a range, not an exact price obviously and just merely a suggestion, you wouldn't have to abide by it.  Kinda like when you appraise a house? Not exactly a code, but just something a person could use to estimate a horse's worth?  For people like myself who don't know much about horses, pricing can be harder than those that know horses/racing and more in depth about the game.  I mean I know there was the suggestion about basing price on a horse's earnings, but that can be hard if the horse is just two years old and only had 3 starts.  I feel something like this will be a better way to try and get people to give more fair and accurate prices than adding or changing the fees involved in selling a horse. 



Dawn

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Re: Sale Prices?
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2009, 02:20:03 pm »
I have an auction going right now... I use a base price system to price my auction horses...

Broodmares I price at a flat $75,000 (this is for unproven mares) and add the price of the stud fee if they are bred...Race horses are based on how well they are doing... usually not more than $50,000...

to date the races horses are the only ones who have sold... 2 2 yo geldings that have placed... both fairly well bred... and no reseve have sold for $50K each... 2 2 yo fillies... reserved at $25K... one is placed the other a multi-winner... the placed filly sold for reserve... the multi winner sold for over $100K... none of the bred broodmares have reached reserve...

In my humble opinion... bred mares are well worth $75K... and the price of the stud fee... I loose by listing them $5K each... then again a 5% sales tax... bringing the price back down...

so the market is not supporting averaged price horses... people are not willing to spend like they did in the future... shipping cost and taxes cause us to be more carful on our spending...

BlueWolf

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Re: Sale Prices?
« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2010, 09:10:44 pm »
I know the game is not meant to be fair I just mean if you put less horses in the game wide auction than there are players in the game most people aren't going to get one. I know that the bidding thing is obvious, I just mean that even if 30 players get their 5 and no one elase gets one at least people could have had one. I know that we all miss out on things we cannot afford but most of the horses in the auctions on day one and two go for $1k each. So if it is a game run auction with 150 horses in it some will get 5 some will get none but at lease there is the opportunity at the start for all to get a chance at one.


A better solution to that would be to have a New Members only auction...

Nan

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Re: Sale Prices?
« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2010, 10:13:44 pm »
I know the game is not meant to be fair I just mean if you put less horses in the game wide auction than there are players in the game most people aren't going to get one. I know that the bidding thing is obvious, I just mean that even if 30 players get their 5 and no one elase gets one at least people could have had one. I know that we all miss out on things we cannot afford but most of the horses in the auctions on day one and two go for $1k each. So if it is a game run auction with 150 horses in it some will get 5 some will get none but at lease there is the opportunity at the start for all to get a chance at one.


A better solution to that would be to have a New Members only auction...

There was a newbie auction a few years back...Unfortunately, there was still angst, because some people didn't get any horses, some didn't get as many as they wanted, some didn't get the kind of horses they wanted, etc. So it created some hard feelings here and there.

Personally, I think that it would be a better solution to emphasize good buying habits/what to look for in a horse, and encouraging/reminding newbies that they can always approach larger stables for specific horses. Key word is specific, there. The fact that we don't see very many posts saying 'I want cheap horses!' is very good, after all. :) But, if you feel you need more horses for your stable, research your potential purchases/leases and don't be too scared to approach people with bids. I remember having to do it and it was scary, but I'm still alive, so I'm pretty sure anyone can do it, too. :)

So, basically, if what you see on the sales page doesn't interest you, or you find you're not hitting the auctions as much as you'd like to, but you still want horses -- you can still do your legwork and go shopping privately. There's nothing wrong with that, IMHO.

BlueWolf

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Re: Sale Prices?
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2010, 01:14:27 am »
You're completely right :) Private shopping got me my leg up in the game. It really is the way to go.

Online Shanthi

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Re: Sale Prices?
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2010, 01:30:59 am »
If new members want horses they're welcome to buy one of the 646 geldings FF has for sale at the moment. ;) Granted, every one of those geldings is 7 years old, but still, they're also only $1,000.

Offline Wolfhound

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Re: Sale Prices?
« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2010, 09:08:12 am »
When I was a newbie I bought some of the older geldings. Some were past it but a couple were amazing and earned me quite a bit of money. And i had some fun racing them and learning more about how the game works . :)
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Offline Grace Littlef

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Re: Sale Prices?
« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2010, 08:23:49 am »
you could also come up with say a retirement home for handicapped kids and horses that meet certain qualifications(age,record,jockey comments from the past etc)could be donated (with a specified fee by Shanthi) to clear up some of the really older ,  retirees, And i dont mean oh here comes spring cleaning, i mean horses that in the real world would be the correct type for this.
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