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Final Furlong Forum - How'd You Do? [2014 Edition]

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Shirozora
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« Reply #45 on: December 11, 2010, 01:06:36 PM »

And what about the newer stables and the stables with less money? The point of Final Furlong is to have fun, not to become so realistic that some stables won't be able to own top racehorses because they can't afford them. It can be really frustrating not being able to own well-bred horses because of the incredibly high prices they go for when there aren't set limits. This is a game and that means we get to level the playing field so that everyone can have the chance to own some real nice horses.

Besides we already have the annual Select Auction. Seriously, have you seen the prices?
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« Reply #46 on: December 11, 2010, 02:38:29 PM »

Andy, let me see if I understand your argument--please correct me if I'm wrong!

Thesis: We should get rid of the spending limits on the foal auction (and all other auctions as well, I imagine)
1) This would remove some money from the game
2) This would add additional realism to the game.
3) People are against this idea of change because they want cheap horses

Do I understand you correctly?

People have responded with the following reasons:

1) The select auction is without a limit, and that removes money from the game
2) The limits on the auction, albeit that they may artificially deflate prices, ensure that even the smaller stables have  a chance of walking away with at least one horse
3) Imitating reality isn't the point of FF; it's ensuring that all members have fun, and sitting out of an auction because you can't afford it, isn't fun.

Again, correct me if I'm wrong.

So, allow me to address your points specifically.

1) This would remove some money from the game
: While I do agree with this theoretically, I don't think the FF-sponsored auctions are the place to do it.  Let's pretend that FF is not a free-market economy, perhaps it's more a socialist paradise in the sense that it does try to look out for the rights of its smaller, less established members.  Thus, look at the FF-sponsored auctions as if they were a subsidized auction so that the largest number of people can participate. 

If the problem is, is that you have earned so much money that the game is no longer a challenge to you because money is no longer an object, there are plenty of ways of removing some of your money from the game (I do say this tongue in cheek, however....not maliciously!):

1) Nominations -- they're expensive!  Nominate your entire stable for every possible race.  You'll lose at least a million in the process.

2) Send your horses on a world tour.  Shipping is expensive.  Send them to all those race tracks they don't normally get to see: Dubai, Japan, Hong Kong, Ireland, etc.  I mean, if they all go, that should relieve you of at least $100,000, right?  Also, fly them everywhere. 

3) Buy ridiculously over-priced horses that have been put up for sale privately--I think there's a couple available on the sale page now!

4) Send all your mares to the most expensive stallions in the game. 

5) Quit and start over from scratch.  Bam.  A whole bunch of money is instantly removed from the game, and you get the fun of budgeting/re-establishing yourself again. 

6) Talk to Shanthi and see if she'll lower the amount of money in your accounts.  She can do that.  =)

Of course, if your problem is that other stables have too much money, there's not much you can do about that except host your own auction and sell off your prized horses.  That should get some of their money out of the game--granted, it'd be in your pocket, but I've already given you some ideas on how to help yourself out of that problem.

2) This would add additional realism to the game. Making a game more real is good, right?  No.  If that were the case, we'd all be broke before we start, what with having to buy land, pay for fees for the vet, farrier, feed, trainers,  grooms, insurance, trailer-upkeep, fencing, etc.  Not to mention the random disasters (I used to play a SIM game where disasters were randomly handed out...people don't like it when it happens to them) that life tends to throw our way--broken legs in the pasture, the mare who won't get pregnant, the horse that goes sour and refuses to work, etc.  Games are not reality.  They're an escape from reality.  Reality isn't always fun, and the point of a game is to have fun, right?  Thus, there are certain things that are built into the game to ensure that all members, regardless of their "economic class" can participate. If the game is too hard or isn't fun for those just starting out, people will quit.  The FF-sponsored, socialist auctions are a way of giving them an option to buy horses with potential (i.e. younger than 6yo) for a cheaper-than-market-value price.  So, if it makes you feel better, just remind yourself that FF is not a free-market system.

3) People are against this idea of change because they want cheap horses: Well, who doesn't like cheap horses?  But I really don't think that's their point.  I think people are recalling the time when they started and didn't have a lot of money.  I think we all have stories of horses we picked up cheap at an FF-auction that turned into super horses. (My stallion, Dark Continent? $500 at the foal auction.)  Of course, we all have expensive duds (I spent $350k on a horse that I turned around and sold for $15k because the bugger wouldn't run!).  By eliminating the bidding ceiling, we will most likely do away the former and increase the instances of the latter.  For a small, unestablished stable, as the price of a horse goes up, the bigger of a risk it is in buying him because the horse NEEDS to earn back his purchase price and then some when money is tight.

I hope this addresses your points fully and explains why a lot of people (myself included) resist this idea.   
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« Reply #47 on: December 11, 2010, 08:32:56 PM »

CricketHill makes some very spot-on points. And I'm all for the argument that horses will sell for their market price. It's mostly FF horses who enter FF auctions, right? I think if a seller wanted more buck for their bang, they wouldn't consign their horse to an FF auction with spending limits.

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The whole point of the limited auctions is to make sure the newer stables CAN afford the better horses in the auctions.  This avoids outrageous bidding wars that stables with less money would be forced out of.

I've played racing games before where those with less money are forced out, and simply put, it quickly loses its fun. With one of these games, I had as much as $3 million in the bank but I STILL couldn't compete with some farms because they were reeling in the millions every year in hosting their own sales, stakes wins, stud fees, ect. Granted said game had no taxes to try and keep the big guns down, but it's a real stab when you can't gain new horses at the auctions.

With a spending limit of 100k, big stables suddenly can't buy numerous horses in an auction for whatever price they can dish out. This was the first time I could spend more than 20-30k for anything and hey, I had fun! I still had fun when I had less money last year and the year before that, though, because I could purchase the bargain bin $1,000 horses. And this year, when I could spend more, I found myself for the FIRST time unable to raise a bid on a horse due to the spending limit. But by this point, I had won 3 horses and I didn't mind losing the third (ended up with another anyways). And hey, kudos to the person who got that horse. Notice how a lot of people tend to walk away with no more than 4 horses? And we have a LOT of members. If people are willing to bid the max on a consigned horse, then they probably don't really NEED (or perhaps want) more, since that's their decision. And not to make this sound selfish, but with the 100k winners out, that leaves plenty of other horses for other people to bid on, both the big and the small stables.
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« Reply #48 on: December 11, 2010, 10:03:51 PM »

But if you think about real life then It's usually the case that some owners have much more buying power than others, in that way in my opinion the game is very realistic. Just think of some of the bidding wars Coolmore and Darley have had over the years. It doesn't really make much of a dent in their overall finances and the way the game is at the moment I think it reflects that.   


Off topic but I got to inspect Darleys new training complex at Agnes Banks (outside of Sydney) the other day, not yet totally finished but boy is it impressive  :o both for horses and staff.
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« Reply #49 on: December 11, 2010, 10:13:00 PM »

Good to see I've at least got some of you thinking

And what about the newer stables and the stables with less money? The point of Final Furlong is to have fun, not to become so realistic that some stables won't be able to own top racehorses because they can't afford them. It can be really frustrating not being able to own well-bred horses because of the incredibly high prices they go for when there aren't set limits. This is a game and that means we get to level the playing field so that everyone can have the chance to own some real nice horses.

Besides we already have the annual Select Auction. Seriously, have you seen the prices?

I don't buy the 'what about stables with less money' we've all been there, we've all seen horses we'd love but couldn't afford it, we've all had to look for ways to get ahead.

Two of my best every horses cost $1k (River of Hope) no one bid on in an auction & a $5k claimer Formal Occasion.
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« Reply #50 on: December 11, 2010, 10:25:53 PM »

Good to see I've at least got some of you thinking

And what about the newer stables and the stables with less money? The point of Final Furlong is to have fun, not to become so realistic that some stables won't be able to own top racehorses because they can't afford them. It can be really frustrating not being able to own well-bred horses because of the incredibly high prices they go for when there aren't set limits. This is a game and that means we get to level the playing field so that everyone can have the chance to own some real nice horses.

Besides we already have the annual Select Auction. Seriously, have you seen the prices?

I don't buy the 'what about stables with less money' we've all been there, we've all seen horses we'd love but couldn't afford it, we've all had to look for ways to get ahead.

Two of my best every horses cost $1k (River of Hope) no one bid on in an auction & a $5k claimer Formal Occasion.

And that's great from your standpoint. From my standpoint, I know that FF is a bit of a niche game. You need to be in it for the long haul (as races aren't run every day, horses grow in real time, breeding really does take a full year, etc.) If members also needed to wait years and years before they could realistically participate in an auction, I'm guessing a lot of new members would quit. Obviously, I don't want that to happen.

I think you're confusing "getting people thinking" with "getting people to play along with your devil's advocate arguments" (not that there's anything wrong with playing devil's advocate). Numerous people have posted the same exact points, in greater or lesser detail/extent.

Cat made a great post. Bottom line: If you want to see auctions with no spending limits to balance out FF's economy, or whatever else you think needs fixing - create your own auction. Or lobby stables to create their own auctions. FF-sponsored auctions will continue to have spending/horse buying limits (except the Select auction, which is the "playground" one).
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« Reply #51 on: December 11, 2010, 10:31:35 PM »

Cat - good to see you at least thought about it  8)

It wasn't really about me having too much - I don't think I do and I'm sure there is stables with far more than me or any other stable in particular.

I just saw a way I thought it would improve the game while also adding to the realism. As I said if we needed restrictions, limiting the number of horses able to be purchased would be better. After all the most recent auction had 134 horses brought by 50 stables. if you limited purchases to say 4 or 5 per stable there would still be plenty to go around and prices towards the bottom end would still stay low while the top lots would sell for a lot more.

Anyway everyone is in agreement with Shanthi (as always) so I'll crawl back under my rock and forget about it.  8)  
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« Reply #52 on: December 11, 2010, 10:45:46 PM »

Andy, I think I'm losing track of what your point is. Why exactly do you want lesson some of the bigger stables' spending power? It's a valid point that horses don't have to be expensive to be big money winners, I'd imagine that would be part of the thrill of the game. What I'm not quite getting (and sorry if i'm being dim) is why you think the game as a whole would benefit from getting rid of sending limits in the FF auctions. Isn't it possible that if limits were abolished then those $1000 horses might 
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« Reply #53 on: December 11, 2010, 10:52:55 PM »

Disappear altogether? Sorry posting form a mobile and it keeps cutting out! As the wealthier stables can afford to spend more on the more popular horses and out bid everyone else there's more competition for the remainder and the prices go up. Bigger stables buy  more horses, win more races on average as they're racing more and ultimately have more money to spend on buying and breeding even more horses and the cycle continues. Smaller stables can't compete with that.   
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« Reply #54 on: December 11, 2010, 11:12:25 PM »

Hey Andy, I'm glad you realized I was listening and thinking about your points. I think everyone who responded thought about it and I don't think it's fair to accuse people otherwise.   The only thing I did differently was to reiterate your points.  Maybe I explained things a bit more clearly, but they were the same points everyone else had made.  I am, sadly, not that original.      

I've been around long enough to see the game evolve.  There have been times when we've had 150 active stables, so while your idea may have worked on a smaller scale, imagine if there were more stables bidding than there were horses available.  The auction needs to work when FF is filled with active members as well as when our numbers are much smaller, and it's hard to find that balance.

It's fine to suggest things--it's great that Shanthi even listens to us!--but please understand there usually is a good reason for the way things are.  Feasible ideas will generally generate positive posts (see the tweak about restarting the timer earlier in this thread), while those which may not be feasible for whatever reason generally receive a lot resistance. When you receive a lot of resistance, it's best to just drop it even if you think you're right. 
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