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Starfish
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« on: September 13, 2013, 01:32:23 AM »

Hi Shanthi,

I know that it is about 6 weeks before the Breeders' Cup but was wondering if you could please, for the sake of any new stables (and some old-timers, like me, who suffer from "some-timers" disease), list the rules for entering horses in these races. In particular, areas that I have always had trouble trying to remember, such as:-
(1) the fact that a horse can only be entered if it is in the top-14 qualifiers, regardless of whether it is in the Sup. Nom. list or not.
(2) the number of horses that a stable can enter in each race - I think it is 2 (1 for 2yo races) up to the last day of entries then unlimited on the last day, provided they are in the top-20 (the part I always tend to forget) and subject to the 14 horse maximum for each race.
(3) Say you have a horse that is in the top-14 qualifiers list for a particular race, and you enter it in the race as soon as the entries open. However, by the day entries close, a number of horses have been Supplemented for the race and your horse is no longer in the top-14 (maybe not even in the top-20) and the race is full. What will happen to your horse, will it get scratched or allowed to race?

One thing I have never been able to understand is the Supplemental Nomination rankings. Say that you have a horse that is not on the top-20 qualifiers list but, when you look at it on the Sup. Nom. list, it says that it is ranked #3 out of 196. Does this mean that it is ranked #3 of ONLY the horses that are eligible to be Supplemented for the race or that it is #3 of the top-20 qualifiers AND those eligible to be Supplemented. In other words, is it possible that you could Supplement this horse for the race, yet it still won't be in the top-20 Qualifiers? If that did happen, what would happen with the Supplemental Nomination Fee? Would you get it back or would you lose it (I seem to recall you saying some years ago that you would lose the Fee, that it would be like you entered the horse in a race and then scratched it at the last minute).

I am trying to decide which horses I am going to potentially enter in these races and map out their training routines and race entries for the next few weeks.

Thanks

BTW - For anybody who is interested, the lists for this year can be found at www.finalfurlong.org/bcqual.php?race=0
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Lewis
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« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2013, 07:52:54 AM »

Supplemental nominations mean that the horse wasn't nominated as a weanling for the BC. The ranking, to the best of my knowledge, lets you know where they rank in the overall list if you were to nominate them. This way people can avoid spending the money to supplementally nominate a horse that doesn't qualify.

Sigh.... the 1-2 2yo per race is going to kill me. My 2yos (currently) own the turf lists.
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« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2013, 08:28:08 AM »

First off, thanks for the reminder - I've been meaning to (and forgot about) adding in a deadline for supplemental nominations so that you can't nominate once races are open. (That's now in place, and should clear up some confusion.)

Basically, the top 14 qualifiers at the time that races open should be guaranteed a slot, if they want to run.

That means:
If your horse is in the top 14 when races open, enter it as early as you like.

If your horse is not in the top 14, you either:
- enter early if you know there will be a space. For example, you own two 2yo colts - Bob and Joe. They're both qualified for the BC Juve and BC Juve Turf, but Bob is qualified as #2 and #3 and Joe is #15 and #16. If you enter Bob in the BC Juve Turf, you know he won't run in the BC Juve, therefore Joe's #15 slot gets bumped up one because Joe isn't using his #2 spot. You can enter both on the day entries open. (I only recommend this approach for horses you personally own - people can change their mind about what races they want to enter, so relying on spotting another owner's horse in a different race may not work out so well.)
- wait until the last day of entries and then enter if there's room.

You can enter as many horses as you can afford to run in BC races - you aren't limited to 2 (or 3) per stable (just what horses qualify).

Quote
One thing I have never been able to understand is the Supplemental Nomination rankings. Say that you have a horse that is not on the top-20 qualifiers list but, when you look at it on the Sup. Nom. list, it says that it is ranked #3 out of 196. Does this mean that it is ranked #3 of ONLY the horses that are eligible to be Supplemented for the race or that it is #3 of the top-20 qualifiers AND those eligible to be Supplemented. In other words, is it possible that you could Supplement this horse for the race, yet it still won't be in the top-20 Qualifiers? If that did happen, what would happen with the Supplemental Nomination Fee? Would you get it back or would you lose it (I seem to recall you saying some years ago that you would lose the Fee, that it would be like you entered the horse in a race and then scratched it at the last minute).

Rank #3 out of 196 is meant to be the entire list (including the current top 20). However, I think it's a bit buggy - I'll be revamping it in the beta.

If you supplement your horse and it doesn't end up in the top 20 (either due to miscalculated ranking or other horses supplementing as well), you're out the fee. That's why people should nominate their weanlings, and/or late nominate for the whole Breeders' Cup instead. ;)
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Shanthi
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« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2013, 08:28:53 AM »

Sigh.... the 1-2 2yo per race is going to kill me. My 2yos (currently) own the turf lists.

Lucky for you, it doesn't apply! :) (Just for Breeders' Cup races, though - they're the only special ones.)
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« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2013, 08:46:36 AM »

Just wondering since they are called 'Breeder's Cups' am I allowed to nominate horses bred by other people or Final Furlong since I have a couple that qualify?
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« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2013, 08:48:04 AM »

Just wondering since they are called 'Breeder's Cups' am I allowed to nominate horses bred by other people or Final Furlong since I have a couple that qualify?

Yes, Breeders' Cup is not restricted to horses you bred, just ones you own.

Breeders' Series are restricted to horses you bred (but not necessarily own).
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« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2013, 09:00:22 AM »

Awesome :)
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« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2013, 12:39:19 PM »

Actually can I ask, since I'm not sure if it's a bug, my filly Vesuvius http://www.finalfurlong.org/viewhorse.php?horse=17167 only shows up on the Open lists, not the distaffs, when I look at the Supplemental Nominations
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« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2013, 01:39:48 PM »

Actually can I ask, since I'm not sure if it's a bug, my filly Vesuvius http://www.finalfurlong.org/viewhorse.php?horse=17167 only shows up on the Open lists, not the distaffs, when I look at the Supplemental Nominations

It's not a bug, there just aren't filly equivalents for those races (filly sprint is on dirt).
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« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2013, 02:28:15 PM »

Oh I see thanks Shanthi
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« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2013, 02:34:31 PM »

This is great!  Thanks for posting this.  My question is... how can you tell if your horse is even nominated to the BC if his sire is retired?  I'm crossing my fingers Serrafimo will qualify in time, but I don't even know if he's eligible to begin with (if his sire's owner nominated him to the BC for 2015 foals).
http://www.finalfurlong.org/viewhorse.php?horse=18841
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« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2013, 03:02:37 PM »

This is great!  Thanks for posting this.  My question is... how can you tell if your horse is even nominated to the BC if his sire is retired?  I'm crossing my fingers Serrafimo will qualify in time, but I don't even know if he's eligible to begin with (if his sire's owner nominated him to the BC for 2015 foals).
http://www.finalfurlong.org/viewhorse.php?horse=18841

On the horse's page - View Nominations will tell you if the horse is currently BC nominated.

If not, go here to see your options/qualification status for supplementing nominations for each horse (http://www.finalfurlong.org/nominate_supplemental.php).
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« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2013, 03:24:57 PM »

I think Shanthi always nominates her studs so Highland Wizard should have been BC nominated. If you go to 'Racing Links' and click on the BC supplemental nominations link at the bottom, it should come up with a list of your racehorses that aren't yet BC nominated. If any of your horses are eligible for BC races this year it'll give you an option to nominate for individual races. If they're not, or you want to nominate for future years, it'll give you an option to nominate for 2018 onwards - as far as I can tell, if the sire was BC nominated this will usually cost you $150,000, non-BC nominated studs cost $250,000 (e.g. studs owned by FF). That's how I usually look it up. Hope that's not too confusing!
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« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2013, 04:59:32 PM »

It says 'no nominations found' on Serrafimo's page when I click the nominations tab.  Shanthi, do you know if Highland Wizard's 2015 crop was nominated?  Is there any way you could look it up since you own him?

Also, nothing comes up when I go to the supplemental nomination page.  Maybe it's because I don't have $150k right now?  (had it the other day, been spending)
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« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2013, 05:26:24 PM »

It says 'no nominations found' on Serrafimo's page when I click the nominations tab.  Shanthi, do you know if Highland Wizard's 2015 crop was nominated?  Is there any way you could look it up since you own him?

He was nominated, but that doesn't mean she was. The stallion gets nominated for the breeding year, but then the babies have to be nominated individually.

Quote
Also, nothing comes up when I go to the supplemental nomination page.  Maybe it's because I don't have $150k right now?  (had it the other day, been spending)

Yes, it won't show you the options to nominate if you can't afford to do so.
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« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2013, 05:30:45 PM »

Good to know!  Thanks.  I've got a quarter of my string racing tomorrow so hopefully I'll get a nice paycheck and can take a peek at that nomination page.  Putting it at the top of my gaming to-do list  for tomorrow :)
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North Oak Farms, Inc.

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« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2013, 04:37:54 PM »

Shanthi - I don't know if you can manually update the Qualifiers list. If you can, I have one horse, Flight of Silk, who is in the lists for a number of races, but who won't be able to run due to injury. If you can remove her from the lists, then that might open slots for other horses, especially as she in in the list for 6 races.

She is in the Sprint, Filly & Mare Sprint, Dirt Mile, Classic, Filly & Mare Turf & Distaff

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« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2013, 02:07:27 AM »

On the supplemental nomination page where it lists the horses I can nominate, one of them is listed as qualified '5 of 5' and '5 of 6', but she doesn't show up in the page of that race.  *scratches head cluelessly*
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North Oak Farms, Inc.

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« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2013, 02:26:26 AM »

They don't show up on the qualifiers list until AFTER they are nominated.
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« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2013, 02:40:56 AM »

OHHHHH!!! *lightbulb*
thanks!
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North Oak Farms, Inc.

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« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2013, 09:20:57 PM »

Am I having another brain fart?  I have more than $150k in my account, but it's not letting me see the horses I want to nominate. 
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North Oak Farms, Inc.

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« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2013, 11:02:18 PM »

Am I having another brain fart?  I have more than $150k in my account, but it's not letting me see the horses I want to nominate. 

I'll need more info to decipher the issue.
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« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2013, 11:58:23 PM »

Shanthi - Does the code take into account a Stable's Bank Balance when deciding on eligible Nominations?

The lowest BC Supplementary Nomination Fee is $180k and the lowest BC Entry Fee is $200k. Could that be the reason Trish isn't seeing anything?
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« Reply #23 on: October 05, 2013, 02:21:26 AM »

I thought it was 150k?  That might be the issue.  I have 160k.
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North Oak Farms, Inc.

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« Reply #24 on: October 05, 2013, 03:40:55 AM »

Oops. The lowest BC Entry Fee is $100k, not $200k, but the lowest BC Supplementary Nomination Fee is $180k.

You do realize that the Nomination Fee doesn't include the Entry Fee. Even if you had enough to Nominate a horse for a race, you'd still have to find the Entry Fee on top of that. In other words, the minimum you'd need to find to Nominate and Enter a horse in one of the BC races would be $280k.
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« Reply #25 on: October 05, 2013, 03:44:30 AM »

Oh I'm sure I'll come up with it by then ;)
I just wanted to see where my ponies might stand in the rankings is all, so I can decide who to nominate, if any.
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« Reply #26 on: October 05, 2013, 04:14:41 AM »

Good luck.

When I first started in FF, I didn't have the funds to Nominate and enter any horses in the BC (nor did I have any horses good enough to enter) until I was in my 3rd year. Then I was blessed enough to have 4 horses good enough to run and 3 of them ended up winning their races.
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« Reply #27 on: October 05, 2013, 07:55:49 AM »

Yes, it does take budget into account.
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« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2013, 03:14:53 PM »

How can you tell what the actual entry fee is going to be?  Specifically the Breeders' Cup SC Distaff Endurance
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« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2013, 03:31:10 PM »

How can you tell what the actual entry fee is going to be?  Specifically the Breeders' Cup SC Distaff Endurance

The Entry Fee for any race is 5% of the Total Purse money. In this case, the Total Purse money is $2,000,000 so the Entry Fee will be $100,000.
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« Reply #30 on: October 19, 2013, 03:58:08 PM »

Shanthi - I have a question about qualifier Tie-breakers. I have noticed that there is a fluctuation in rankings from one minute to the next.

In the Breeders' Cup Dirt Mile, one of my horses, Londesborough Boy is currently showing up as 20th, with 83 pts, 2 Stakes Wins, 2 Stakes Places and 0 Allowance Wins. Earlier this morning, a different horse was showing up as 20th, with 83 pts, 2 Stakes Wins, 2 Stakes Places and 0 Allowance Wins. When it comes down to the last day for entries (i.e. Monday 28th), how will either of the owners know which horse is eligible to be entered, assuming the race doesn't have 14 entries already?
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« Reply #31 on: October 19, 2013, 04:41:08 PM »

Earnings would be the tie-breaker.
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« Reply #32 on: October 19, 2013, 09:46:28 PM »

Thanks, Lewis! (and shanthi)

I have a mare and the qualifier page says she's #5 of 6 if I nominate her, so I'm really tempted.  That's a pretty high percentage at getting a paycheck if she entered, right? 
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« Reply #33 on: October 20, 2013, 12:29:02 AM »

Thanks, Lewis! (and shanthi)

I have a mare and the qualifier page says she's #5 of 6 if I nominate her, so I'm really tempted.  That's a pretty high percentage at getting a paycheck if she entered, right? 

Not really. My ponies have a bad habit of being near the top of the qualification list and then not even hitting the board. My bank account doesn't really appreciate that. But maybe your luck is better than mine?
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« Reply #34 on: October 20, 2013, 07:15:07 AM »

Thanks, Lewis! (and shanthi)

I have a mare and the qualifier page says she's #5 of 6 if I nominate her, so I'm really tempted.  That's a pretty high percentage at getting a paycheck if she entered, right? 

Based on 6 entries, yes - if she's competitive against those 5 horses.
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« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2013, 01:19:06 PM »

Based on 6 entries, yes - if she's competitive against those 5 horses.

She's got better times than one of the other horses confirmed to run, so my fingers are crossed! :)
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