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Mintano
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« on: September 24, 2013, 02:25:21 AM »

If anything I'd like to see the number of real life stallions in the game lowered or eradicated all together. It's hard enough for in game stallions to get mares with the easier stud restrictions. Plus the real life stallions are pretty much impossible to guess what to match them up with.
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Hilda with Clicker
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« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2013, 07:47:17 AM »

If anything I'd like to see the number of real life stallions in the game lowered or eradicated all together.

I like the real life stallions, they make the game more interesting. My current weanlings are by 22 game stallions and 5 real life stallions. Next year I'm planning to use Deep Impact, Rock of Gibraltar, Ghostzapper, Frankel, Monarchos, Point Given and Giant's Causeway. Would be sad if they weren't around! From my suggestions - I think that Musketier has amazing soundness.
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Shanthi
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« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2013, 09:07:32 AM »

If anything I'd like to see the number of real life stallions in the game lowered or eradicated all together. It's hard enough for in game stallions to get mares with the easier stud restrictions. Plus the real life stallions are pretty much impossible to guess what to match them up with.

That is a fair point. I know at some point we had an activity/popularity check for FF stallions - if a stud wasn't getting used he got retired.

What I would suggest in that regard (possibly for all FF studs, not just the famous ones):
- If they don't get at least 5 outside mares any given year, they're retired at the end of that breeding season
- If they don't get at least 10 outside mares for 2 years running, they get retired

The following studs would immediately retire:
Harvard Bound (3)
Mr. Townsend (4)
Tiznow (2)

The following studs would retire at the end of 2018 unless they get 10 mares next year:
Empire Maker (8)
Invasor (6)
Lasting Spirit (9)
Rock of Gibraltar (9)
Silver Charm (7)
Sneak Peek (6)
Sun King (6)
War Chant (5)

Regarding competition for studs - I think owners need to decide if they really want to stand their colt (and if there will be a market for him, if they don't want to just stand him for their mares). I've gelded many well-bred colts who arguably could have become studified (if not gelded) because I felt their bloodlines/talents were already well-represented in the game.

Looking at the current list of stud-qualified racing colts, 3 of them are by Slew O'Scots. On the one hand, I'm happy because he's retired and (being biased) I'd like to see his bloodlines continue. On the other hand - does he really need 3 sons at stud? Probably not. (Of course, that said, having just spent close to $1mil buying one of those colts I'm still planning to stand him at stud ;))
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 10:39:06 AM by Shanthi » Logged
Steph
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« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2013, 10:09:14 AM »

I quite like the game stallions but there are 78 pregnant broodmares in my stable and only 8 are in foal to FF stallions. I missed a few Player-Owned stallions I like the look of now, but I was a bit out my depth this year and I will diversify even more next year. But I like the wildcard factor of the FF boys, it's fun!

Perhaps they could have a definite spot for say two seasons (the new FF stallions are a bit disadvantaged at being a high price compared to many player owned newbie stallions and no lineage/race record for reference) and then after that it could rely on popularity? At least then the FF mares would ensure a good bit of their bloodline stays in the game, just in case they turn out to be stellar BM producers ;)
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« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2013, 10:42:27 AM »

On the other hand - does he really need 3 sons at stud?

But doesn't it reflect real life, when people breed/inbreed like crazy to Northern Dancer, Mr. Prospector, and now Frankel? And then they end up with the "bottleneck effect" of popular studs, when they can't outcross because one stallion is everywhere. Also, I think that players may not breed to real-life studs often, but then they look for their lines in horses with longer pedigrees - like I was excited to find out that Hot Gold was inbred to Bold Ruler, which wasn't very popular but now he's gold/silver.
I think that it adds a lot of realism, but maybe it's important only for pedigree aficionados. ;) Maybe the real-life studs just need a page about them, so that people don't need to browse the Internet when they plan their breedings?
Also, I think it's interesting when FF breeds on real-life lines. For example my FF-bred filly Tizzy Fit is a Tiznow/Awesome Again cross, or Ch. Crownette is a Giant's Causeway/Man O'War. And if one becomes picky about game stallions - like now I want only ones that were injury-free and ran at least 40 races - then there aren't that many of them.
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Shanthi
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« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2013, 11:07:16 AM »

But doesn't it reflect real life, when people breed/inbreed like crazy to Northern Dancer, Mr. Prospector, and now Frankel? And then they end up with the "bottleneck effect" of popular studs, when they can't outcross because one stallion is everywhere.

In real life there are lots more horses, though. Given that we only have 121 stallions (and, to Mintano's point about finding it hard to get mares for your studs, I'd rather that number be closer to 100), do we want lots of them to have the same bloodlines? The game-bred ones will anyway, so why add more bloodline duplication among the famous studs?

Sire A and Sire B in real life who are by the same sire would get different mares based on their racing records, training records, location (as live cover is required), stud fees, etc. To some extent the same is true in FF, but obviously location is less of a factor - in real life if you could breed to Sire A who's 100 miles away vs Sire B who's 800 miles away, you're probably going to pick Sire A. In FF location generally only plays a factor if it's overseas.

I don't think much comparison can be made about how real-life breeding/bloodlines work compared to FF. There are over 10x as many real-life racehorses born (just in North America) than FF, so of course there's more diversification (and duplication) of bloodlines in real life.
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« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2013, 01:18:35 PM »

Sure, this is also true. I don't know! I just like the real life stallions ;) they have real life stories, too... I didn't realize that we have 121 stallions! :o

P.S. And I want to breed Queen to Frankel :D
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 03:46:25 PM by Hilda with Clicker » Logged
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« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2013, 04:14:57 PM »

Quote
P.S. And I want to breed Queen to Frankel :D

I think Frankel is popular enough that he'll be around for a season or two yet so you should be OK !

I quite like the idea of studs having to be used by enough non-FF mares to stay in the game and they do add some diversity. I usually only tend to use them though if they're proven or I recognise them - quite often if they've raced in Europe IRL.

I tend to prefer to wait on the ones I don't know and see if they do well before I think about using them.  Maybe lower starting fees for the new boys might be a good idea to encourage people to use them?
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 04:18:29 PM by imagine » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2013, 04:25:52 PM »

I quite like the idea of studs having to be used by enough non-FF mares to stay in the game and they do add some diversity. I usually only tend to use them though if they're proven or I recognise them - quite often if they've raced in Europe IRL.

I'm fine with Steph's suggestion of giving a stud a 2 "free" years before possible retirement due to unpopularity would kick in. For 2018, that would only affect Empire Maker - the rest of the studs on the possible-retire-in-2018 list have been around for a few years already.

Quote
I tend to prefer to wait on the ones I don't know and see if they do well before I think about using them.  Maybe lower starting fees for the new boys might be a good idea to encourage people to use them?

The reason their fee is set reasonably high is that I'd rather people use in-game stallions. :P If you want to say you own a Frankel baby, or a Deep Impact baby, then you should pay for the privilege. $25k is not tons of money given that new members start with $250k (and I wouldn't expect a new member to breed to a famous stud straight off the bat, though obviously they could).
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« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2013, 06:41:01 PM »

I wanted to voice my reasons for not breeding to the "famous stallions" as much:

For me, they are too much of a gamble up front.  Looking at pure logistics, you are paying a $25k stud fee for a foal who may not know how to run it's way out of a paper bag.

I always try to breed/acquire one foal from each fairly early on - preferably from each boys' first season - and then wait to see how it (along with the rest of the crop) tends to run at 2, 3, and possibly even 4.  If baby does well, I go back for more.  If the baby seems "average" or less, then I don't tend to go back.

I feel that the real life stallions should get until their first crop is turning 4 or 5 before they become eligible for the chopping block, but that's just me.  The two "free" years doesn't tell me anything, since it only yields a yearling crop.  Giving instead a 5 year window would give them time to prove whether they can attract mares, and if not, will at least allow them to produce enough foals that if their get explode at 4 or 5, FF owns enough that can eventually get claimed/purchased at auction.

As for the retiring immediately list - those are all stallions I avoid due to overall poor performances of their offspring, so I wouldn't miss them.  The ones that are potentially going to get culled are generally ones I've bee watching to see how their get perform.

Overall, I think the stallion culling is a good option to reduce producing "undesirable" foals.  However, I don't ever mind when I enter my ponies into races and see a lot of FF-owned Tiznow/Harvard Bound/Mr. Townsend contenders...  >:D
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Alyssa
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Mintano
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« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2013, 01:25:05 AM »

That is a fair point. I know at some point we had an activity/popularity check for FF stallions - if a stud wasn't getting used he got retired.

What I would suggest in that regard (possibly for all FF studs, not just the famous ones):
- If they don't get at least 5 outside mares any given year, they're retired at the end of that breeding season
- If they don't get at least 10 outside mares for 2 years running, they get retired

The following studs would immediately retire:
Harvard Bound (3)
Mr. Townsend (4)
Tiznow (2)

The following studs would retire at the end of 2018 unless they get 10 mares next year:
Empire Maker (8)
Invasor (6)
Lasting Spirit (9)
Rock of Gibraltar (9)
Silver Charm (7)
Sneak Peek (6)
Sun King (6)
War Chant (5)

Regarding competition for studs - I think owners need to decide if they really want to stand their colt (and if there will be a market for him, if they don't want to just stand him for their mares). I've gelded many well-bred colts who arguably could have become studified (if not gelded) because I felt their bloodlines/talents were already well-represented in the game.

Looking at the current list of stud-qualified racing colts, 3 of them are by Slew O'Scots. On the one hand, I'm happy because he's retired and (being biased) I'd like to see his bloodlines continue. On the other hand - does he really need 3 sons at stud? Probably not. (Of course, that said, having just spent close to $1mil buying one of those colts I'm still planning to stand him at stud ;))

I remember when we did this, IMO this would be a great idea to help cull down on the mass of stallions we have.

It is a tough market especially with the easier stud restrictions, which I did benefit from otherwise Sleipnir wouldn't be standing. I recently sold my other stallions Yes It's Paddy because he only got I think 2 outside mares other than mine and FF. I only really have the mares to support one stallion so he was the one to go as Sleipnir holds a special place in my heart. Yes It's Paddy actually qualified with the older stallion restrictions but was a create and a late bloomer which I think lowered his appeal.

I've used the real life stallions on and off but haven't had much of any success with them other than Cigar and Secretariat who were just superb stallions. Not since the old guard were retired have I really noticed any of the real life stallions having much of an impact which is why I'm for getting rid of most of them.
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« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2013, 08:17:56 AM »

For me, they are too much of a gamble up front.  Looking at pure logistics, you are paying a $25k stud fee for a foal who may not know how to run it's way out of a paper bag.

The same could be true of any stallion. ;) Each breeding includes the chance of a paper-bag-runner and the chance of an unbeatable superstar. Obviously with in-game stallions you have their race record to go off of, but that's not an indication of how good they'll be in the breeding shed. (Look at my stud, Kermit - I would have expected him to be Silver/Gold ranked based on his race record but he's always languished in Bronze...consistent producer, but only allowance-level rather than stakes, for the most part.)

Quote
I feel that the real life stallions should get until their first crop is turning 4 or 5 before they become eligible for the chopping block, but that's just me.  The two "free" years doesn't tell me anything, since it only yields a yearling crop.  Giving instead a 5 year window would give them time to prove whether they can attract mares, and if not, will at least allow them to produce enough foals that if their get explode at 4 or 5, FF owns enough that can eventually get claimed/purchased at auction.

A 5-year "free" window seems kind of pointless, really. By that point the RL stud may have retired anyway, and if the stud produced mediocre 2- and 3-year olds his first crop then the last 2-3 years of that window he's probably not getting much action anyway. Which is fine if you want to keep famous studs around as long as possible, but if people do want new studs to be added, then some have to leave.
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« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2013, 01:09:29 PM »

We could also cut the RL studs down to just 10 vs. 15, especially given how many stallions are in the game overall. IE cull the 3 on the chopping block and 2 others if they don't hit the "criteria" of having received x-number of mares and not increase from there. Or if people really want new stallions to try, cull the 5 and then vote which others to replace (maybe 2-3). Just a suggestion.
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« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2013, 02:44:17 PM »

Sorry, I was counting the 4-5 years from the second they start standing at stud, meaning when their first crop is 3 or 4 years of age before they are cut.

I feel that the "2 free years" system is flawed, in that, assuming the 2 years starts at the beginning of their standing, their first crop would only be yearlings.  When I look at a boy, I'm more worried, as you pointed out, in how his foals do at age 3 (with a secondary look at age 2).  I only want to make sure I can see how his 3yo crop does through the year and not have him immediately disappear the next spring before I can breed to him (if they do well).

RL stallions, from my experience, tend to garner the most mares their FIRST year, and then subsequently more after their foals start running IF that first crop does well at 2 or 3 (for example, Rahy).  So the two "free years", in my opinion, should cover the years where the boy is more likely to get a low number of outside mares - say, his 2nd and 3rd breeding season (where we would only have pretty weanlings and yearlings in which to judge him by).  Then your 2-bad-years-in-a-row system could go into effect (allowing us to also see him produce 2 and 3 year olds).  The following spring, after the 3 year old season has ended, he could potentially already be slated to retire based on the previous 2 breeding season numbers.  However, what if his 3yo crop explodes?  Maybe we could make some sort of a clause - i.e. if he produces X number of stakes winners/placed runners by the time he would be culled, we could put it to a vote or extend his reign, giving him one more year to get a decent number of outside mares.

I am not opposed to reducing the number of RL stallions.  I think it could be a good thing.

I'm less worried about getting "new" RL stallions, because I'm more concerned with finding a good producer, personally.  I would trade countless "new" famous names for one solid Cigar/Rahy/Secratariat/A.P. Indy/Point Given.  And yes, they may retire in RL and cut that opportunity short anyway, but that's an understandable gamble that makes me feel closer to RL breeders.
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Alyssa
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« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2013, 09:17:39 AM »

I've split this discussion into a new thread so that the existing thread can just be for famous stud suggestions.

I've also created a poll for how many famous studs people want in the game: http://www.finalfurlong.org/forum/index.php?topic=9012.0
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